Tour Talk, Calories and King of the Lake — Can We Actually Go Aero?

Björn: Hey, this is Björn. Just a quick note before we start — this episode is an AI-generated English version of our original German Afasteryou podcast. The voices you hear are cloned with AI. Enjoy the show. Welcome to the Afasteryou Podcast, where everything revolves around endurance sports and training. Here Sebastian Schluricke, Björn Kafka and Niclas Ranker give you valuable tips and insights to help you take your performance to the next level. Welcome to a new episode of the Afasteryou Podcast. Good morning, Björn. Good morning. Survived May 1st okay? Yeah.

Niclas: Yeah, I find May 1st totally fascinating. It's a holiday that's celebrated completely differently across Germany. Absolutely. I find that fascinating. On one hand, representing workers' rights and so on. Or rights for workers. Labor struggle, basically. And then occasionally cars go up in flames. And in Bavaria, on the other hand, they put up Maypoles and everyone wears traditional outfits and all their gear, which I always find totally disturbing, because I find these folk festivals always tricky. It always reminds me of that book by, what's his name? Schirach, yeah, where he describes a folk festival scene and then some crime is committed there, a really gruesome crime. And folk festivals always have this tipping mood for me, this constant... music blaring and everyone letting loose, but there's always so much ugly stuff brewing in the background, and there's always a lot of alcohol involved. So it's always hard for me to bear these folk festivals, I find them really creepy. I was out cycling and then you come into some town, Höhenkirchen or whatever, it's pretty far south, or a bit south of Munich, and there it's really proper Bavaria and there's money there too, and they all have their traditional outfits on and they put up a Maypole and you really notice, somehow it's uncomfortable. And they just block the road, boom, closed, you can't get through, there's a detour, the town is just shut down.

Björn: Yeah, that actually happened yesterday on my tour through the Eifel too, but those were more like... drunk teenagers who just blocked the road with sawhorses and benches and basically wanted money to let you through. Like, this whole May 1st, get plastered and block some roads thing, I'm not into it. No idea, don't need it.

Niclas: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, but I really enjoyed it, I rode 100 kilometers, wow, on gravel, wasn't easy. And I thought a lot about this topic we're going to talk about today, because I just threw a topic at Niclas, and I talked to three other coaches about it, three WorldTour coaches even. Okay. And it was pretty interesting. So you want to start with... Yeah, we'll start with something easy. Whatever. Who needs structure, right? Okay. Let's do it. Let's start. Nobody needs it, right? It's just like mathematics. It only ever gives us a certain structure. And when you look at mathematics really deeply, you realize there's sometimes not that much structure behind it. So, no. And here's the thing. We are, when you look at... endurance training in general, there are always lots of trends, we don't even need to talk about it, we have low carb, we have high carb, we have polarized, then we have Double Threshold, and so on. Zone 2. Zone 2, which also makes sense. Every training makes sense. So, listen up, now let's combine two worlds, and I noticed it a bit, especially when I work with runners, or people who basically ride too fast. So, yeah, a bit older and basically only ever GA2 pace. Generally not much happens. They've totally economized themselves, but... this vicious circle, this vicious cycle, you can break by really packing them full of carbs. I mean really, really packing them full of carbs. When you look at how many carbs flow through during a tempo workout, that easily goes over 100. And that gave me the idea, or rather I noticed, especially with the runners, when I started saying, hey, listen, we're just going to slam down 90 grams of carbs in the endurance training, where they always run a bit too fast. Yeah. And they're totally adapted, you know. There were these crazy jumps. And then I, when you look at simulations or spiros, so long spiros, not just a ramp, but really super long stages, then you see what's actually flowing through in terms of energy, or how is the carb mix, or how is the mix of... the macronutrients, although you also have to be careful, what did you eat before, how many days have you been living somehow and so on. That always influences this stuff too. But you see that in these zone 3 trainings, relatively disproportionate amounts of carbs get burned. And that's the devil's stuff, you're not allowed to train that. I'm always, I'm not a fan of it, I have to say, because I'm a fan of every training. But for economizing athletes I've always liked using it. Now I thought, or rather noticed, that when you stuff them full in these ranges, the athletes have crazy adaptations. And that led to the question, does it work, are we creating a new trend here? Zone 3 training, high carb. That's the question. Listen up, listen up. And then I asked several people the question. WorldTour coaches. Really good ones. The first says, carbs are magic, works super well. First statement. Really good guy. The second says, no question, works great. We did this in the past too because we estimated the values too high. And, wink wink, just ask Uno X, they have no problem with riders having a 7 in front of their weight. So things really get going there too. And the third, exactly the same. He also said, it works. And then you look at race files. It's always been, whenever I do a breakdown of which zones people are in during a race, a lot, brutally a lot in zone 3. Why do we never train this? Why don't we fuel ourselves brutally high in these ranges?

Björn: Exactly, and that was, when you asked me yesterday, was it yesterday or the day before, when you posed the question to me, the first thing I did was, okay, well, I went into the file of an athlete who rode the Cape Epic, who actually rode really well in the pro field too, and I think I even wrote in our notes, I think almost 40% of the time, the entire Cape Epic, he rode in the tempo range.

Niclas: Sure.

Björn: He rides the whole time in the tempo range. And then sometimes the whole time at relatively low cadences. Something between 70 and 85, which already, when you look at cadences in general, belongs more to the lower end. That means everyone who rides stage races, everyone who rides long mountain bike races, rides tons of gravel races, rides tons in this range.

Niclas: Exactly. And the question is of course, this training can break you down quite a bit and ruin your oxygen uptake somewhat if you don't fuel yourself properly. And luckily we're now in a high carb state. or rather, what does high carb mean, when you look at how many carbs flow through, I can do some clicky-clacky, just thought of it.

Björn: So if we just, I have my power test open right now, if we go from the tempo range, that would be 290 for me, so that would be end of Fatmax, up to 370, let's say maybe 360 watts. What do you burn at 320 watts? At 320 watts, what do we have there? We're already at 97 grams of carbs. Right.

Niclas: But also still 77 grams of fat. Yeah, sure. This is just talking off the top of my head. There aren't any major studies on it yet. Now we should actually write to Ben Drenister. Let's do a double-blind study. Again with washout phases in between. What happens when we do different training regimens and just have three weeks of training and then blast through with 120 grams? And then you, smartly, sent me a nice picture of Cameron Wirth. Which Ironman was that?

Björn: I think it was Texas, right? Where Blummenfelt won. Blummenfelt won and Cameron Wirth finished the thing in 7:39 I think and rode a new world record on the bike split. Yeah. I think, I'm not entirely sure right now. Anyway, sadly he didn't upload it with power data. Shame.

Niclas: Right, but he burned through 200 grams of carbs per hour.

Björn: Yeah, and I think that's so awesome. Especially, he also described pretty clearly how he did it. So for the gel selection he went with Amex and another brand I didn't know, because they have a lot of sodium in them. Mhm. And then he, so he only took gels, plus through the bottles he got from outside, they're allowed to take bottles at the feed zones, and from there he only took water with electrolytes, so just with salt. And he tried to get to 200 grams of carbs per hour. So over the entire bike split he said, 9 and 28 gels, so 40-gram gels he took. Crazy. And then through the fluid he took in, he took in 1.5 grams of sodium, which is also really a lot. So really a lot of salt with really a lot of carbs and really a lot of water.

Niclas: Right. Yeah, exactly. That's basically the working hypothesis. Now you all, after you've done a power test or have that figured out, can have it tested. Ride way too fast and eat way too much while doing it. No, I see this with athletes, when we ride in these ranges, and that's what I do. I'd say, Fatmax also partially falls into this range, when you're already a bit grilled. You have similar effects, and if you fuel yourself really well, then this training really moves things forward, and that's the amazing thing. So I'd say, this definitely belongs in the training repertoire, and not just to economize, but possibly also to drive adaptations.

Björn: So the first thing I thought when you brought this up was, again, the thing you always say, there's a right time for every training and also the right rider. Yeah. If you're a rider who, for example, races mountain bike marathons, and you're standing before your peak event, and you know, okay, you maybe can't ride for the win, meaning you're maybe not up front, okay, you have to blast over-threshold to threshold up the climb, then somehow recover, and have to keep doing this as long as possible, but instead you pace your 100 kilometers with 2500 meters of climbing alone, then tempo to sweet spot is exactly your range, where ideally you should train this beforehand. Or you ride an Ötzi. It's exactly the same. And if you do that training, plus you also train high carb intake, that will probably be the perfect training for you to get your best target time over an Ötzi for example. Yeah.

Niclas: Yeah, and I think, I know, this only works in combination with super high intakes. Not just in the race, but also in training. So you shouldn't start riding these high loads and then not eating or eating little. That will backfire, or at least you'll first economize yourself a bit. That can also make sense. So carbs are the key for... In this case. Or as the one wrote, carbs are magic. So I'm a big advocate of this strategically deployed carb intake, so to speak.

Björn: Absolutely. I think, if you're a rider who already has problems taking your 60 grams per hour in your endurance range, and you're already the rider who says after hour four, yeah, okay, in the last half hour I don't have to take the 60 grams anymore because I'll be home soon. as you said, then this training is maybe nothing for you. Better leave it alone, ride your easy endurance and keep going polarized and do your 90 minute hit and you'll probably ride better with that. But if you can manage to take in your 120 grams over four, five hours for example, and don't shy away from it, then you can also train energy turnover really well that way. You can economize yourself there too and just train your performance probably, your target performance for the competition perfectly and also build it up.

Niclas: Yeah, definitely. You can play around a bit with cadences. Meaning, which phases do I actually want to address? It's always primarily about energy flow. How much energy flow can I generate to drive adaptations? And in these ranges I have a relatively high energy flow and possibly also exciting adaptations. But as always, everything in moderation. Strategically incorporating that could be exciting. Will definitely cause adaptations. So give it a try. Now we've established a new trend. I'm already looking forward to it. I'll talk about it again next week. In the English podcast. I talked to another podcaster again. That's what? Yeah, why not? Just as... An observation and a wild idea, why not? I think there's something to it. I believe.

Björn: I'm pretty sure there's something to it, because it has... Everything has an influence. You always have to see, the studies that are done, they're always about what has the maximum influence. And then you have to see, can the athlete actually implement it. And there's the right athlete and the right situation for every training. And if you go and fuel it with enough carbs, which many studies probably haven't taken into account, then you also have totally different effects and a different adaptation.

Niclas: Yeah, exactly. So, we're already through, right?

Björn: At least with your topic of tempo training. Yeah. But what I wanted to address a bit more was, what we already mentioned last week, after the marathon episode comes the gravel episode. And actually fits pretty well. The Tracker is happening right now. Do you have athletes at the start?

Niclas: Hans and Georg Egger of course.

Björn: Should be a good race for Georg, right?

Niclas: Yeah, also for Hans. Alban Lakata. Okay. Andi is unfortunately sick. He wanted to ride too, but it knocked him out a bit. And then there's Jill from Rose Racing Circle. Okay. We'll see. I hope I haven't forgotten anyone, but I think that was about it.

Björn: So, gravel races. Fundamentally, how do you train people for them? How do you see the demand profile of gravel races a bit? Because I find that really exciting compared to mountain bike marathons for example.

Niclas: Two worlds come together there. We have the mountain bike marathon aspect on one side and the road aspect on the other. That means you have to be able to ride in the pack somehow. You have a high aerodynamic aspect. But you also have a technical aspect of course. And that actually makes it exciting. So you have your three pillars there that you have to pay attention to. So first build engine, build technical riding skills, and then also build aerodynamic skills. I mean, anything over 20 already has an aerodynamic influence. Yeah, exactly. So the sport, that's why it's still totally exciting, because there's still tons of potential. It's still that, well, the gravel experts are slowly emerging now. But we still see, when the road pros come in, they still dominate, they still dominate extremely at the World Championships or wherever. So I'm curious to see how it develops further. It seems, well corporations are putting money in, so they live pretty well off it too, but it's still totally in its infancy. And I think a few die-hard road riders, male and female, are still a bit like, should I do it or shouldn't I? Yeah, so a very exciting area, because we... can and have to dig deep into our bag of tricks. And material of course, brutal. I mean, even there the material knowledge... I find, you see this when you see a few names in this area, you think, that guy was never that good. He was okay. He was an okay road rider, he was an okay cross-country mountain biker. And then they're riding up there somehow and you think, okay, sure. But they have an advantage because they've engaged crazy deeply with the material and are out riding insanely much on these trails. So that's definitely an aspect that shouldn't be underestimated.

Björn: I think what you said pretty well is, currently when you look at the gravel races, you can always either say, okay, this is more of a gravel race that goes towards a road race and is also raced more like a road race. So for example... Last year the World Series in Aachen is basically raced like a road race. Or for example the World Series in Switzerland last year in Villars is raced like a mountain bike race, because from the start it actually goes uphill, into singletrails, over paths, where from the demand profile, aerodynamics played no role because it was so steep. There it was just about who can put the power down the longest. And then you mostly have, I find, you still see currently, people win, well, gravel is also too young for there to be pure gravel riders. That means, either the person comes from a road background or mostly from a mountain bike marathon background, that's who's still winning currently. So if you look, the European champion is Martin Sturzek, one of the best mountain bike marathon riders. World champion I don't even know. Will be some road pro though.

Niclas: World champion last year? Yeah, it's Van der Poel, right?

Björn: Is the reigning world champion Van der Poel? I think so. You think?

Niclas: Yeah. You're the gravel guy.

Björn: Why am I the gravel guy now? Yeah, actually, Van der Poel.

Niclas: Who's second?

Björn: I just googled who... Wait, must be there. Florian Vermeersch. Third Quinten Hermans. Fourth Jasper Stuyven. Fifth Gianni Vermeersch.

Niclas: He's such a nice mix of cross and road.

Björn: The first one who I think isn't a pure road pro is in 10th, Tönnerts. He's a cross pro.

Niclas: Yeah.

Björn: Yeah. But what I wanted to say is, there's either the course that's raced more like a road race and when road pros come, they crush everything. Or there's the course that's raced more like a mountain bike marathon and then the mountain bike marathon pros win.

Niclas: Although the Euros also wasn't super stacked, you have to honestly say. If Mathieu had been at the start, he would have won too.

Björn: Yeah, Mathieu is unfair. Whenever Mathieu, no matter which race he starts, he wins.

Niclas: I also think if you take the top 3 from the Worlds, they'd also ride at the very front of the Euros.

Björn: Vermeersch was also up there and Hermans is also up there.

Niclas: Yeah, I think it didn't interest them. The Euros didn't interest them at all, sadly I have to say. It was thinly stacked. Yeah. No idea, Martin. No, that's super. Jersey is jersey, I wouldn't say anything against it. So honestly, absolutely not. But it was just a different level, you have to honestly say. It's also like the development at Ironman. There used to be three, four super fast guys and now you have ten super fast or 15 super fast athletes. It rotates around quite a bit there too. So the performance density is high, but the attractiveness of the races is decisive. And if you have road pros who say, doesn't fit in the calendar right now, then they're just not at the Euros start line. Yeah.

Björn: Probably the Euro title just doesn't have enough significance for them to say, okay, I'll travel for that.

Niclas: Most likely there's also barely any money for it. So I find the jersey is nicer than the World jersey, but the sponsor doesn't really care that much. Most likely. Yeah.

Björn: So I find actually, if you want to ride gravel races, you have to pick the races that suit you, that make sense. So either you come from one of the two directions and then you pick the suitable races for that, or you look at how you are physically. So if I'm a small, light rider, I'll pick gravel races with a lot of climbing. If I'm a big, heavy rider, I'd rather race Aachen. So more the flatter, road-style courses. And accordingly, I think, you should always think about the material too. So either I have a course that goes towards mountain biking. So that means the trend is clearly going towards, okay, I'd rather ride a 2.1 mountain bike tire. The popular ones there I think are Thunderbird and Race King. Or you go... more in the other direction, like on a course like Aachen. And sometimes a road tire is still ridden there. So they ride with a 32 to 35 road tire or with a... very narrow or narrower gravel tire. And those are the points, depending on which course you have and depending on how much gravel, real gravel is in it, how rough is the whole thing, you have to think about the material. And I think that's a bit of the... Also the fun of gravel sport, I find at least, that you can really misjudge it. If you have the wrong tire on, the race can totally go south, because you have no chance on terrain sections if you don't have the right tire. And vice versa, if you ride a mountain bike tire and you ride the whole time only on asphalt or very light gravel paths, then the others with the 35 or 40 tire will probably just roll away from you.

Niclas: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, you can definitely make a mega science out of it, which is totally exciting. It always reminds me of, who was it? Our super cross-country skier from Norway, biathlete, who went to test with 60 pairs of cross-country skis. This idea, in some camper having 60 or 30 pairs I think he had, of cross-country skis with him and prepared for the Olympic Games. But you can probably do something similar in gravel. I'm experiencing this now all the time. I find this professionalism totally exciting in some ways. I'm experiencing this now with Avancini. I've known him for a bit longer now. What I always find exciting about him is, he engages incredibly extremely with courses. He's always done this. Whether at the Worlds he won, whether in cross-country, whether now especially on the road. He really doesn't shy away from any effort, what he's doing now, the Tour of Slovenia, then he just drives there and just brutally looks at this course. So every corner. And he really puts in effort. You can't forget, doing that. And I miss that sometimes a bit. with other athletes, like, oh, it's fine, course was sort of ridden a bit and so on. The better you know a course, and that's why there's a classic home Worlds, or the Brazilians ride incredibly good World Cups in Brazil. Are they really that good? Sure they're good, yeah. But can they pull that off in other European World Cups too, where they don't know the courses as well? It's just the question, this advantage of good course knowledge is still totally underestimated. And I find, in gravel it's even a hundred times more interesting. You have an eternally long course. That means the effort to scout such a course is immense. But every stone, every corner, every manhole cover, everything you know, every climb, where do I fuel myself best, etc. That's just extremely important. I mean, on the road, yeah, what an effort is made when it comes to course knowledge, so a lot is taken off your shoulders, the... DS who tells you what's coming, which section, where do we have to be at the front etc., you already know what's up, that isn't being delivered yet in gravel. I assume the structures aren't there yet that tell you, okay, here, here and there, at kilometer X, you have to be at the front, and is it raced as a team, that's the next question, so how widespread is that already, that's also a bit harder, it's also hard in mountain bike marathons. So, course knowledge. So traveling there a week earlier already makes sense, to look at the thing precisely and know what's coming. That's a mega effort of course. But for someone who wants to win, I think that's a sensible thing. And also knowing which tire I ride.

Björn: That's really the thing. So that you basically... I mean, you almost have to have three sets. So for really technically demanding corners you actually need the mountain bike tire. You also primarily need the bike where a 2.1 mountain bike tire fits in the first place. So there are only a few... The big German manufacturer Canyon, you don't have a bike where you can fit a good 2.1 tire, as far as I know. Not every bike can do that. Most actually stop at, I think, 50. You actually need to fit a 55 in. So you definitely need the material first. You actually need a mountain bike tire, you need a fast-rolling 45, and you actually need a fast-rolling 35. So those are I think the tires you should definitely have ready. And then potentially also something for wet conditions, where it really comes down to, what kind of wet sections are these. So... It's really exciting and I find, you also see, when you look at the results, that depending on the race, except now in the US scene at least, so especially in the European scene, there really isn't a real dominator yet who says, okay, I win every gravel race here, but it's really across the board. Sometimes some old WT pro or PCT pro comes around the corner, suddenly wins the thing. I think overall, this Pas Normal team is doing a really good job. They're very, very strongly represented at almost all races and have riders on the podium really often. Then Petr Vakoč is also doing a sick job overall. So he's also pretty much always in the top 5 when he's at the start.

Niclas: He also has a sick background, yeah, from Alpecin. Yeah. To Canyon Mountain Bike with Andi and Marc Stutzmann, Martin Stoszek, racing through the area. But it's funny because he was just okay. But I mean, compared to the other three I just mentioned, just way, well, not way off, but pretty far off. And in gravel he's actually riding really well.

Björn: Yeah, but he was, wasn't he at the Euros back then in Czech Republic? Didn't he get a medal there?

Niclas: Where? In what?

Björn: Mallevíčko, mountain bike marathon.

Niclas: I think Rabensteiner won, right?

Björn: Rabensteiner definitely won.

Niclas: Andi I think got 14th with stomach issues, because he got sick. Or I think he ate something wrong, I remember.

Björn: I think there was a Pole from JBG on the podium. And I thought third was Vagotsch.

Niclas: No idea. I think that's... whatever.

Björn: Okay, but fundamentally Vakoč was a really strong rider. Yeah. Rose is also doing a good job. What?

Niclas: Rose.

Björn: Rose? Yeah, absolutely. So especially when it comes to gravel, across the board, they have really many, many good athletes by now. On the really long ones they always have Sebastian Breuer, then they have Paul Voss now, and the Rose Racing Circle is also overall really, there rides... Rassmann, Frederik Rassmann I think the strongest. He's already won World Series races.

Niclas: And here the new Austrian champion, Pörzlberger.

Björn: Why did he actually quit on the road?

Niclas: It's, I think, more the question, did he get any more offers on the road?

Björn: I don't know.

Niclas: It's really a bitter pill on the road. Or for how much money do you want to keep racing? I think that's also the question. I think his last race was, or his last season. I think I remember. It was Tour of Austria, where he then, the Slovak won the King of the Mountain, and he was somehow behind. And then he was done at some point, then at Bora, he most likely couldn't get a decent contract anymore. Or he was fed up, no idea. But I see that... There are so many new, super young, good riders. Whether it's always the super choice to say, we'll take someone here who has sick oxygen uptake and the killer values, but maybe not yet so far personally and also psychologically not so far. Double-edged sword, you have to consider. But definitely, it's a hard-fought field, because tons of good ones are pushing up from below. You see that in the entire sport development. So gravel is also a good catch basin. What does catch basin mean?

Björn: That sounds negative.

Niclas: To use the abilities these athletes definitely have. They're mostly most likely, when the career is already a bit longer, the lactate production rate has surely already gone down a bit and the oxygen uptake has also gone down a bit. So for such a long thing, I mean Trucker, how long do they ride there? Six hours plus. So that totally suits these athletes.

Björn: Absolutely. I have to say, most Gravel World Series races for the top riders move somewhere between 3 hours 30 and 4 hours. They're mostly not that long. But these outside of that, the races, those are, I find, really interesting. So now for example the Trucker. And actually, I have to say, the real gravel scene actually takes place in the USA. So with the Lifetime Grand Prix. And I find that a bit of a shame, that on one hand there's the Lifetime Grand Prix in the USA and on the other hand, I'd say, for the Europeans, bluntly put, the UCI Gravel World Series. And that you don't really find a real competition there, where the USA guys also say, okay, we're coming over, or the Europeans, they go over there. Only a few do that. I think Paul Voss and Vakoč are like... Ah, and Don Ockelund. those are the three I can think of who really go to the USA and also race the big USA races and also can fight for the win when Keegan has a bad day.

Niclas: He's actually racing again.

Björn: Yeah, Keegan's racing again and Keegan's winning again.

Niclas: He just did. He's back on the right bike.

Björn: He's back on the right bike. He won Sea Otter I think relatively dominantly. Which is always like the first race of the Lifetime Grand Prix and really crazy values are ridden too. and afterwards I think he won the race directly too, and then the last one I think Matthew Beers won, the Belgian Waffle Ride is also crazy, so I find Beers on a gravel bike looks somehow wrong, because the bike looks so minimalist underneath him, and the guy is just big, heavy, he was on the road, and puts down dumb amounts of watts. Which team did he race for on the road?

Niclas: I think for UAE.

Björn: No, really?

Niclas: Way at the beginning, yeah. Crazy. Or I'm not sure, but somehow I have that in memory. But he can also just ride from the front for hours, right? But if you're not good enough, then it just isn't enough. Then you have to win the Cape Epic three times. That's also not enough. That doesn't interest you. There it comes again, right? Who knows the course better than Matthew Beers? Nobody. Yeah, that's a huge advantage. That's pretty crazy.

Björn: Good, do you have anything else on the gravel races topic? The only thing I'd say on it is, test the aerodynamics.

Niclas: Oh yeah, I'm telling everyone. I just had an athlete who fortunately tested. Yesterday was also Grand Prix in Nenzing, Vorarlberg, UCI 1.2 I think. And then someone, who did aero testing beforehand, which was really cool. And a group went, a somewhat bigger group, and he had to bridge up. And he said, it went, I attacked over the top of the climb and went into the aero position I had tested with a 25 CdA value, which is already really cool for road bike. He's also not the biggest rider in the world. And he said, I could just hammer it. He said, I just couldn't have done that without this knowledge. And that's just so brutal. When you have an aero position where you know, okay, I can hold this, it's extreme, but I can ride it for five minutes. And close the gap with it. Hey, that's just awesome. Or I'm now somehow up front in the chase, or in the lead group, and can hold this position, I know, I can push that for 30 seconds in the wind and then I go back in. That's a dream. Always test. Test everything.

Björn: So I think, especially in gravel sport, you underestimate it a bit, because you think, yeah, it's offroad, it's not so important. But you have on a race like Aachen, I think, somehow a 35 km/h average over the race. Sure you have a few sections that of course go through the forest and where it goes up and down, where it doesn't matter as much, where you have to build your bike so you can handle it well too, especially offroad. Yeah. But then there are also sections where you really have to sit aerodynamically on your bike. Especially when you fall out of a group or want to bridge back to a group. You really have to sit well aerodynamically, because it makes a really big difference, when you're going 40 on the flat. whether you're a wardrobe or whether you can get small and whether this small position is also actually fast. And you only know that if you've tested it. And I think that's something many riders underestimate and just don't do, because they're not so aware that... And it's really not hard to test that out properly. Which helmet fits? Does a one-piece make a difference? Then these... undershirts that you can sometimes pull under the one-piece, where your arms become more aerodynamic, shoe covers, arms shaved, legs shaved, which bottles do you have on the bike, where is your hydration positioned, do you have a bladder, do you have a backpack, two bottles, three bottles on the bike, no idea.

Niclas: Always test. It's so highly individual. So you also can't say across the board, that's crap. Maybe you can lean out a bit. So I mean, wind jacket is always crap. Wind vest is also always crap. Open especially. Right, open especially. So great idea. So wind vest, wind jacket are always crap. It's this trailing edge of a wind vest is always crap. Really makes you slow. So really, really slow. But also there test, test, test and it costs nothing. So costs 25 euros. Go out once, engage with it, and then you get 20, 30 watts gifted.

Björn: Absolutely.

Niclas: Which is awesome. And you don't even have to, and we always say this, test material extensively, but test position. We have, we now have... Now we come back to the Crazy Race. Apart from the Trucker, there's now also at the same time Race Across Italy. And there Daniel Steinhauser is racing again, who narrowly missed it on his first attempt two years ago. With stomach issues he, I think, dragged himself to second place at the finish. Last year fat in the lead, all mega, mega, mega. and then his support vehicle broke, so behind, they had an accident, catastrophe, a bit of leadership and... and then he wasn't allowed to keep going, because without support you can't keep going.

Björn: Ah, is that like at Race Across America?

Niclas: Yeah, yeah, exactly. They put the camper into the guardrail. I mean, that's also really shitty, so bitter. Anyway, and now is the third attempt, but he's been pretty aerodynamically optimized over the last two years and rides with a correspondingly low CdA value through the area. Switches the bike permanently, so where it's worth it, he rides on the time trial bike. I don't know how many kilometers, I think we set 500. And the other 250 you ride on the normal road bike. And that makes a huge difference. And that's gifted speed.

Björn: Yeah.

Niclas: Do it.

Björn: Absolutely. I found it super cool to see in a Dylan Johnson video, how for example the rim has an influence on how the tire builds up. And then there are cases where for example a wider tire just closed off better with the rim than a narrower tire and then the wider tire was better in terms of rolling resistance and was better in terms of aerodynamics. That's also so cool to see. That gets expensive of course, when you have to buy a new wheelset to even test something like that. But fundamentally these are things that you can just test. Okay, which tire fits in terms of rolling resistance, which tire fits in terms of aerodynamics. How is my position? What clothes do I wear? Which helmet? Gloves? There are so many small things you can test there and do, that don't cost so much money.

Niclas: Are these rubber lips still around, that you press between rim and tire? I don't remember which manufacturer that was. Was it Michelin? I don't know anymore. No idea. So that this edge isn't there much anymore, was, I think, also banned by the UCI. But there were people for a while who smeared silicone in between.

Björn: Isn't that still done in cyclocross sport, that you basically tape your tires from the outside?

Niclas: Yeah, that could be.

Björn: So it doesn't jump off the rim?

Niclas: Could be. But... This edge between rim and tire, that you make it disappear a bit. There was an extra rubber thing for that, that was in there. On a tire, I don't remember which manufacturer that was. I'm sure it isn't certain. But I think it was Michelin who had a rubber thing for that. Yeah, but it disappeared again. Okay. Yeah, quickly, since we're already a bit on material, sure, handlebars, etc., we don't need to talk about it, gearing depending on terrain, then tire choice also depending, chain and so on. Clean drivetrain, fresh chain, waxed chain. All waxed through, please, so all the crap doesn't stick. And then batteries please charged, batteries charged. Classic, right? You arrive with empty batteries. Uh, I haven't been able to shift anymore.

Björn: Yeah, especially, when you ride SRAM, also check in the app how much your shifters still have.

Niclas: Yeah. Yeah. I'm an anachronist. I ride old crap. I still like to ride mechanical, because I'm lazy and want to think as little as possible. I also still like to ride rim brakes, because it's just all idiot-proof. If it breaks, it breaks. I also don't ride tubeless, well, mountain bike I ride tubeless of course, but on the road bike I don't ride tubeless either, because I don't feel like changing tires on the road. It annoys me colossally. There's nothing worse. So I'm classic with a tube. On my tandem same thing. I ride, but there I ride these cool tubes. Hey, I'm a tandem fan.

Björn: I'd love it if you raced with some sick athlete of yours, you steer in front and he just pedals in back, and then you win some tandem race. That would be so awesome.

Niclas: And then aerodynamically optimized through. I had, this is my fifth tandem.

Björn: Okay, you have experience with tandems.

Niclas: I love tandem riding. Tandem is the best. Why I have the tandem is actually pretty simple. My wife doesn't ride as fast as me. And earlier the difference was even more glaring. when I could still really ride fast. And yeah, then we thought, we'll buy a tandem. Then we first borrowed one. I was still at Bike, at the Bike magazine then. And we found that pretty awesome. And then we bought one. My first was a Cannondale DL, yeah. That was pretty cool. We then also did, we did, before we got married, a crossing of Germany, Denmark, up to Sweden. On a tandem. On a tandem, yeah. And only camped. I think we were in a hotel once when the weather was so catastrophic. And it was really, that was also, hey, the tent, it was such a, you have to really love each other a lot if you can sleep in this tent. Everything has to be super light. I think a Hogan Ultralight from VAUDE, so the sleeping mats barely fit in. Right, and then I had a Stevens at some point. But that wasn't so awesome, because the steering angle was crap. So that really bothered me. The bike itself was a totally beautiful bike, but the angle was so crap, the bike didn't tip away as well. Totally uncomfortable. And now, I wanted a road tandem and road tandems are really hard to get. Or rather there are basically, I find, there's of course Santana as a manufacturer, that's the bike manufacturer per se, but you're always in five-figure territory there. So mostly. And what you'd buy used is just really a thousand years old and not awesome anymore. Cannondale used to build great road tandems, but I don't think they make them anymore. At least you can't find them. And there you can only get them used and also for way too much money. And I, at the Worlds in Innsbruck, road Worlds, totally by chance, I don't even remember where it was, in Garmisch or so, I was kind of riding through somehow, I found a road tandem from the company Chaka. I don't know if you know them. I don't know Santana right now. Oh right, yeah, Santana is the shit. So there are really awesome ones, like titanium with carbon and so, really, really fat. Santana also organize these Santana tours. Then they fly somehow to, rich Americans fly to Europe and do 14-day vacations and ride through the area with their Santana tandems. So they're really cool, you can also disassemble them and so. I think Richie still has a tandem too I think.

Björn: Dude, the prices. Wolf Carbon, 12.6 kilos for a carbon tandem. You know what the thing costs? 25,000? 21,000. That's awesome, right?

Niclas: Hey, those are basically two bikes, right?

Björn: Yeah, exactly.

Niclas: But there's also a Czech manufacturer, Duratec.

Björn: Okay.

Niclas: And those are cool. So that would be my choice now. They're also priced about a quarter of that. They're really cool, if not even less. But at least I was able to score this Chaka tandem with full 105 really cheap. And we've been riding it ever since. It's a super bike. I really like it. I think, the manufacturer doesn't even exist anymore. The only person who knew this manufacturer was Mieke Kröger. She says, oh cool, Chaka. We used to ride those too. We had them in our team XY. They come from somewhere in the Ruhr area. Right. And ever since I've been riding it, but the next will most likely be a Duratec. You're on Santana, right? You're fascinated by Santana?

Björn: Yeah, I find it super crazy right now what brake discs they have on the carbon model.

Niclas: That's awesome, right? That's awesome.

Björn: The brake disc is approximately... It's a pizza plate. Yeah, exactly. That's crazy. It's really a pizza plate. So, downhill brake discs are crap compared. Yeah, exactly. They're just really big. Dude, like... yeah, okay, that would, I think, already be funny. I always find it crazy when you're at the start of some big mountain bike marathon and then see that the course you're riding with the cross-country full suspension, people are riding down or riding with a tandem. Where I think, hey, are you out of your mind? Are you crazy? You're going to die doing that.

Niclas: Tandem on flat is awesome. Yeah, on the flat, but not on trail. No, not on trail. On trail I find it crap. So there are things that are really annoying on tandem. So that's just no fun anymore, right? No, so it's, so uphill tandem is really, both have to be fit. It's just like that. It's also uncomfortable, because the weaker, or the stronger one always has to pull the weaker one up. That sucks. I had this on our long tandem tour once, we rode up such a steep ramp. And we had luggage on, no idea, 15 kilos, 20 kilos. And it was so steep that my wife on her own power couldn't have ridden it with the bike at all. And there was such a spot, I said, look, you get off, I'll ride the bike up now. It's easier for me than if you're sitting on it. Then I just rode the bike up. That's just rode 30 kilos of bike up. That works. No, so tandem. By the way, now we're really straying. The topic is already done anyway. Right, just falls off after 10 minutes. On the flat tandem is killer. You have wind resistance, when from the front, is awesome. And you just blast 40 km/h through the area as a duo. That runs pretty well. And you have to have good tires on, more stable ones. I think I have Conti something with all the puncture protection stuff there is. Otherwise the Four Seasons was always pretty cool too earlier. That worked well too. And for everyone who unites different performance categories in their partnership, a tandem totally makes sense. I find it better than e-bike too, because you can always with an e-bike, well it's at 25 km/h end, mostly. And the safety aspect is also, I find, really cool, because the one in front, generally can already ride pretty well. And then you don't have to constantly wait. When you blast down some descent at 80 km/h, then you don't have to wait 10 minutes because the other person creeps down at 30 and cooks the brake discs.

Björn: But you also have to say, the other person in back has to be ready to hack down a descent at 80 km/h with a tandem.

Niclas: Yeah, I know it. Eyes closed. Björn, I just closed my eyes. I don't know what's happening anymore. I just hear, it's just really loud. Don't look.

Björn: I think I want to ride a tandem. Tandem is mega. Okay, I think let's write to Santana. We need a tandem.

Niclas: Or Duratec. Now Duratec is on. Everyone is live tuned in.

Björn: Wait, first comes Duratec lab supplies.

Niclas: No, with C. Just C. Not Kirchholm Tech. There comes the Fumetscher. I was thinking with him yesterday too. About Fumic? Yeah.

Björn: He's now sporting director at... Cannondale? At Cannondale, yeah.

Niclas: Oh wonder. Fumic. But they don't ride flapping shorts anymore. I think because of that he... His Worlds fourth place, I think it was in Norway, he, I think, lost because of the flapping shorts. No, he didn't ride flapping shorts there I think.

Björn: He was also second in Pietermaritzburg back then, behind Schurter. He was still riding flapping shorts then. Yeah, flapping shorts is just nonsense. He could have become world champion.

Niclas: Yeah. He could have ridden better without flapping shorts. Definitely.

Björn: I had this Duratec here in bike fitting once even, I just see. I know the bike. I had a Paralympic athlete once. We adjusted him on his tandem. Awesome, the SKS with Rockshox fork. Okay.

Niclas: Good, let's stop. I already have the next topic in my head. I would have liked to start talking about these Human Power Vehicles, so about these recumbent bikes that are fully faired. Like Milan and what they're all called.

Björn: Dude, with those you can also just dumb hammer around.

Niclas: Like 120 watts and you ride 45 the whole time.

Björn: Yeah, on the Terranova Speedway someone is occasionally there with one, where I also think, the thing just whooshes past you.

Niclas: Something like that. Yeah, we have to invite someone. By the way, I have two new guests. Can I announce them? We have Michael Liebesen on the podcast again. Okay. We'll only talk about heat, heat, heat. What do I do in great heat? How do I prepare for it? What can I do?

Björn: But we'd actually have to do an episode on it in German first, to even... heat training... No, no, no.

Niclas: We're not doing heat training. We're doing, what do I do in heat. No, we'll do it in English. We have an international audience. We'll manage it. Sorry, so much workload. I'm not putting myself through that. And then we're doing one with Raúl Celdrán from Caja Rural. Yeah, okay. He's the nutritionist there and is also coach at Klimatisa. He's also, works together a lot with Javier Sola. They have a company together called Nature Training I think. Right, we have him in too, and then there's also another special guest at some point. But the two of them will come in the next weeks, because we have requests that we should also do English podcasts again, which we totally enjoy doing.

Björn: Good. Very good. Perfect. Then today a bit of a wild episode, tempo training, gravel and tandem. That's awesome. Perfect. Thanks for listening, if anyone is still listening. And you Björn have a nice May 2nd. Right. I'm going to buy flowers now. Ah, super. I'm doing carbo-loading. We'll talk. Ciao.