Carbs & Performance

Björn: Welcome to the Afasteryou Podcast, where everything revolves around endurance sports and training. Here, Sebastian Schluricke, Björn Kafka, and Niclas Ranker share valuable tips and insights to help you take your performance to the next level. So, welcome to a new episode of the Afasteryou Podcast. Today not alone, but back together with Björn. Hello Björn.

Niclas: Moin, moin. So, we're talking about carbs. The most intense doping there is. Nothing boosts performance like carbs. We're also talking about the Cape Epic. We're both maximally unprepared, which I actually find kind of nice. Because this time I'm not the only bogeyman, you are too. And we've got a few things, or I've looked at a few things. I sent them to you, Niclas, but you had a bit of a look too, right?

Björn: Yeah, I had a bit of a look, exactly. And I had already prepared an episode recently that wasn't purely about carbs, but where carbs and, I'd say, just normal eating and nutrition would have been a big part of it. And that's why I think we can have a pretty good conversation about this topic.

Niclas: Yeah, it's fundamentally a great topic.

Björn: It's the topic you have to hammer into most athletes the most. And I think it's the area where the biggest potential lies for almost 80% of my athletes. Because, as long as you haven't, a silly example, I had an athlete who was with us at training camp and he didn't know beforehand how much you can eat. And what a difference it makes between a pro athlete who fuels a 30-hour training week with carbs, and a hobby amateur who wants to ride a 30-hour training week and even get better from it. But in the end he maybe doesn't even manage to ride it or to improve from it, because he can't manage or isn't even aware of how much he has to eat. And I think that's really a point I hammer into many of my athletes, and what I always ask first is: have you eaten enough? And I think many don't realize how much they need to eat. Yeah.

Niclas: Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. Yeah, I'd say let's get started, right?

Björn: You want to do carbs first, or do you want to do Cape Epic first?

Niclas: Let's do Epic. Well, no, you want Epic. I don't want Epic at all. I'm frustrated enough already. I only complain at a high level. No, Epic first, then there's a great transition. Okay. Look, you rode it. Yeah. Tell me, how was it?

Björn: Sick. I think of the three editions I've been at, this was definitely one where everything was really there, and a lot, at least it felt that way, a lot happened and the race was insanely exciting. Mhm. I think it's rare that a South African team raced so actively and, to put it bluntly, also raced for the win. Theoretically, something could have happened with the two teams up front, and they weren't that far behind. A rear derailleur broke and suddenly the guys are racing for the win. And that can always happen at the Epic. And I thought Tristan Nortje was insanely strong. So cool to see him wanting to hammer from the front all day. And the conditions were just really brutal. To see a day where at the peak, Garmin measured 39, so in terms of perception definitely over 40, 42 degrees, also measured at one point in Paarl. That was just brutally hot. From kilometer 40 to 60, no water stop, and standing in a trail climb for 20 kilometers with 40 degrees hammering down, is... Great.

Niclas: Sounds like a logistical masterpiece.

Björn: Yeah, that was definitely good. And then at the end the rain stage, which was even shortened, four hours of riding in crazy rain. In Lawrence Ford with the stones. That was fun too. So everything was really there. It was insanely fun for me. But I have to honestly say, I wasn't riding at the limit. Yeah.

Niclas: Oh, Niclas is getting a call.

Björn: But also for the first time. Normally, you see, I forgot, normally I always have Do Not Disturb on. Then this doesn't happen. Sorry.

Niclas: No worries. Yeah, Epic is always, one part is the riding, the other part is surviving. It has a bit of, Alex Hutchinson just released a new book, The Explorer's Dream. Which isn't really about this, but why do we actually do this shit? Or rather, it's more about, why do humans do nonsense, with the mindset of, actually we're doing fine, we have enough to eat and so on, but we try to find undiscovered things, or want to fly to Mars, or back then we'd get on some ship and sail 70 days in one direction and see if we hit something. Exactly, and the Epic is maybe a bit of that too, kind of mind-expanding, I'll just call it. And that's true for the athletes, and it's also always like that for me as a coach, when I switch into that perspective. This year was really extreme because we had two extremely strong, or three very strong teams up front. It was exciting, super exciting. For me, of course, a shame that Jakob Hahnmann got so sick two days before, because nothing was possible anymore, and they were just so brutally in shape. That would have been really interesting. But yeah, at least we've just gotten back on track with Jakob. It really was a nasty viral illness and he dragged himself through it. And yeah, Marc Stutzmann with Porro, despite...

Björn: Best marathon team, right?

Niclas: Best marathon team, and I have to say, the prep was far from optimal, with a lot of illness, and Porro cracked... Broken hand, right? Broken hand, I mean, that's already... To ride eight days Epic with a broken hand and finish fourth. Cracked up, right? He crashed in Andalusia, and I mean, that's already solid, right? Marc didn't ride a single real race before. In Andalusia he couldn't even race because Porro had injured himself. Then he was sick, and the week before Andalusia was really still like, okay, how do we handle this now? Can you even race? Exactly, then Egger and Baum, also totally solid. Here and there maybe a bit undersupplied, but on the last stage they really pulled out all the stops, I was super happy for them. For the two of them, especially for Georg, I mean, riding Schurter off his wheel. That looked so sick.

Björn: That looked so sick. You really saw at his pedal stroke, okay, he's really stomping into it right now.

Niclas: When there are good, high, three-digit numbers, when one horsepower just cruises around up there, then it becomes one-horsepower horsing around, so to speak. Exactly, then Vera Looser, also totally solid in second place, against Langvad and Gomez there wasn't much to do, though, you have to say, Annika also struggled, and she's definitely beatable. Especially struggled technically, for example on the...

Björn: Yeah, often crashed, uphill, often had to get off, had to run, over supposedly, for example on this Paarl stage you saw it, on these switchbacks she constantly had to get off the bike, in these switchbacks, they weren't... I can't remember any where I had to get off, they weren't that hard.

Niclas: Yeah, it's true, when you haven't done that in a long time and then you're grey, you're not as coordinated anymore and then you play it safe. It's like with training, when do you crash? You only ever crash when you're actually just about home, because you're already more in home mode and, more importantly, also grey, glycogen-depleted maybe, and then... That was maybe the safety-first variant and it was definitely the right one, because she crashed hard a few times. And that could have ended very differently. Yeah, absolutely. That's the exciting part of the race. The horsepower you have, you have to get it onto that course. She's definitely physiologically brutal, and also clearly better than everyone else at the start. But yeah, you have to get the horsepower onto the road. That reminds me of this ad, and this ad is so old that even I as a kid still have it way, way, way in the back of my mind. It was the ad with, I think, Carl Lewis, the sprinter. And it was from Pirelli back then. And he was wearing high heels, standing in these starting blocks from the sprint, and then it said, Power is nothing without control. And that's exactly what it's about. You can have too much power, and if you can't transfer it to the ground, then you're just standing there. And that's kind of the main problem.

Björn: Yeah, also the supposed favorite team around Specialized with Keegan Swenson. Had back problems all week, and nothing happened.

Niclas: Yeah, that was really wild. I really would have thought, or many on paper said, that's the team, they'll rip it apart, and actually after the first day it was already clear, nothing is going to happen. And then someone had back problems, and this and that. So in the end it was exciting to see how supposedly good they were supposed to be and how bad. They weren't bad either, right? But I'll say, Matthew Beers steered that through pretty well and they ended up, what did they end up, sixth, seventh in GC? Yeah.

Björn: The result, but in the end, he came there to defend his title, and he was pretty pissed off. I think after the first day, you have to give Beers credit, on the first day he realized, okay, we're not winning this thing this year, and he still rode it professionally from the front for seven days and dragged Keegan across South Africa.

Niclas: Yeah, Andi and Tim on the last stage, she still had to let off some steam and just ride up front with the others, to the UCI's dismay.

Björn: Yeah, and the commentators also didn't find it so cool that suddenly Tim and Seewald were riding up front.

Niclas: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Björn: But you can't blame the rider. You prepare the whole winter for this race, you know everyone's watching, and you know, I'm in top form, and then to hold back and not ride your partner into the ground. Yeah.

Niclas: Yeah, that's super hard, especially when you're in that kind of overform, then it's really bitter. But yeah, that's how it is and I don't allow myself to judge.

Björn: Well, you don't have to make a judgment about it, but I think, anyone considering, should I line up at an Epic Series event, you have to be clear: you have to ride with your partner for eight days, four days, six days. So it doesn't help you if you're super good and you're putting pressure on your partner downhill the whole time and he crashes five times. That doesn't help. You have to function as a team. I also pushed Juri through the terrain for eight days. I think my shoulder muscles got stronger from all the pushing. But that's, we knew this beforehand, we talked about it, and I said, every path where I can push her, I will push her.

Niclas: How did you roll into GC, by the way?

Björn: Three? Fifth.

Niclas: Fifth, okay.

Björn: Juri on the last stages at the end always, to put it bluntly, I rode him empty the first four days, and then it always became, the first few hours went okay and then at the end it always got really tough on the stages and then the other teams just rode away from us.

Niclas: Yeah, but still, I mean, in Open Class or whatever it's called. Is it called Open? Yeah, Open Men. Yeah, Open Men. Still super, yeah.

Björn: To finish fifth place at 49.

Niclas: Dude, wild. That's really super wild. Sorry, I think at 49 most people have very different worries. I wouldn't manage it. But I'm not 49 yet. But I'm closing in on it fast.

Björn: And... I have very, very great respect for his physical fitness and that he did it so well. But what I found way cooler, the guy rides downhill like he's on rails.

Niclas: Yeah, cool.

Björn: He rides, even when he's grey, so cleanly and well downhill. And you can rely on it, you can push him uphill, and he sits into the descent and hammers the descent, still quickly. Mhm. Safe downhill. It was so fun to ride with him.

Niclas: Great. Yeah, that's super. That's really good. So, now we have the awesome transition. In journalism you'd come up with a mega awesome transition there. If you were writing something now, you'd take an Epic stage and a rider rides himself pretty empty on such a stage because of lower carb supply, and then he comes to the finish and there's also nothing right away. And then it's the next day and actually nothing much works anymore. And that would be the journalistic intro. Then we'd start with the hosting part, so to speak, and we want to talk a bit about carbs. And especially a bit about a few studies, or we picked out one study. I dug out a few others, what's happening. And we found a really nice study that's also reasonably current. 'Delaying Post-Exercise Carbohydrate Intake Impairs Next-Day Exercise Capacity, but not Muscle Glycogen or Molecular Response.' So simply put, it means, even if you eat carbs and the muscle glycogen looks the same and the molecular response is the same, it doesn't mean that performance is the same. And in this study they looked at what actually happens with delayed carb intake after high-intensity training. They had one group, it was a double-blind study, I think it was cross-over design, meaning one group did one protocol and then it was switched afterwards. So we ride ourselves empty one day, high-intensity. One group gets carbs immediately. How many grams? I think 2.4 per kilo of body weight. I don't remember anymore. And the other group only gets them three hours later. Then they measured again how much glycogen is in there. Saw, okay, actually it's the same for both, pretty much the same. And the next day they rode again. And they found that even though the glycogen is the same, the ones who ate later ride significantly worse. And that happens also with things like Cape Epic and similar. If you already fuel too little during the stage and afterwards maybe also not optimally, but especially during the stage, and you ride yourself slightly grey, then you're done the next day. If you look at how long it takes, this doesn't become clear in this study, but there's a nice book on Muscle Physiology, I think it's called, I'll send you the 500 pages. And Gatorade does quite a lot of research too. They have a really good research department. How long does the resaturation of glycogen take, especially the fast-twitch fibers? That can take really long. And I usually count, despite good supply, about 28 hours, sometimes 40 hours. And that also always explains when people with high VO2max and high lactate production rates ride themselves into the ground at the beginning.

Björn: They ride really fast on Sunday, and afterwards...

Niclas: But don't we mess up the VO2max along the way, because that's always the danger. And then he had the Giro shifted in the last week because he came with his high VO2max and lowered the lactate production. That's also this classic phenomenon, we know it. So the people with good VO2max, high lactate production, it's like, first day goes, second day is usually a disaster, and from the third day it gets a bit better, if the stages allow. At an Epic it's hard, because it's never a rolling pace. And if you have stages where it's full gas every day, then you won't catch up. Up to a certain point, if at the end maybe there's a short one, then you might get lucky that a little bit stuck. But it's mainly about: push carbs in whenever you can. That shows it pretty well. So don't save.

Björn: And what do you say? How many grams did your top riders take?

Niclas: So ideally I'd have them take 120 grams, which is logistically hard at this race, and the water supply is also really an issue. It's not like in the WorldTour, or however on the Tour, where a car next to them just sticks it in their back pocket. That doesn't exist. It just can't happen that we throw in too many carbs and have too little water, then they just won't be absorbed. Then we switch from isotonic into all kinds of tonics, hypotonic, hypertonic and so on, and too much, too little, and you have to calculate that a bit. And that's really the big danger, that too little water is absorbed. And then we have a concentration, that's what it's about, a particle concentration that we absorb, that the body, the body always wants to create a balanced medium so to speak, then we withdraw water from the body additionally, to dilute this... high energy-dense concentration, particle concentration. And then you're in deep trouble. Exactly, then you get really bad cramps, dehydrate. Then it would actually be smart, in such a phase, to say: we'll take a concentration that's not isotonic, but clearly more diluted. Then water gets released back into the body. And you can't handle that at the Epic. That's really a problem. That's why hydration packs sometimes make total sense. But I think with hydration pack development there's still a lot of potential, I have to honestly say. Especially the cooling aspect. You could put some brainpower into that. Maybe I'll write to that USWE, that's what they're called?

Björn: Yeah, but now you have to, which model do you have, or what are your criticisms?

Niclas: I've tested various things now. Okay. And also regarding heat regulation, and the effect is marginal. You can do that much smarter, because we actually have a relatively good exposed area. We have to get ventilation, and we have to get a direct contact surface to the liquid, because liquid, when it's cool, I mean, that draws out the heat, that's what it's really about. And you have to approach that smartly. And then you can actually make something awesome out of it. Up to now you've got, the things stick on your back, that's it. You have to put some brainpower into it. And the Epic lends itself well, because we have low humidity. That's why you can also actually make a really good thing regarding ventilation and things like that. And especially the cooling through the drink. That the backpack gets handed to you in the second feed zone or something, when it gets really hot. Then it would be exciting.

Björn: Yeah, because we had the USWE with basically an insulated package around the bladder and we could always, we rode with it every day and we just stopped at the VP, got ice water, and poured it back in, and so we at least had cooled drink, and it stayed cool relatively long. And that was already pretty cool.

Niclas: Yeah.

Björn: But sure, the idea we always had, that the hydration pack or the cold bladder lies on the back and cools us through that, you don't have that with this, because it's isolated.

Niclas: Yeah, that's the crux of the matter, that's what it should really be about. But now we've drifted a bit. If we look at the study again, exactly, so what actually came out is that performance decreased. I think lactate build-up was also lower, which is totally interesting, because they actually have the same muscle glycogen. So we definitely have an impairment or a, not impairment, so a restriction of lactate metabolism or glycolysis through temporally delayed intake, even though the carb amount over 24 hours was identical. Also regarding gene activation, classic endurance markers like PGC1-alpha were also the same, so expression was the same. And yeah, simply exciting, how exactly the mechanisms behind it are, why two-hour-later intake still doesn't... despite the same muscle glycogen and similar markers, still leads to this restriction. You can take that as a takeaway and say, avoid running on empty in races and in training. And also classic, if you do training that builds on itself, like somehow VO2max on the first day and VO2max on the second day, eat during training, eat after training. Otherwise the next day will be a disaster.

Björn: So I also say, especially with high-intensity stuff, the 80 grams per hour, those definitely need to go in. And really, you ride three hours and have two bottles on the bike, don't only put 80 grams per hour in there. That means you also need another 80 grams for the last hour. So, stop at the gas station again, get water, and maybe another Maurten pouch or... MX, whatever, doesn't matter, have it with you again. One athlete of mine always has a tin with him where he refills his iso powder from home, so he has another 80 grams in his jersey pocket. So it's really about taking that in per hour, and not just having two bottles with 80 at the beginning. And also, what I often hear: yeah, I still had a bar with me and it was only another half hour to go, I didn't eat it because I can eat at home. No. What you can eat on the bike, there are studies about this, everything you eat on the bike, what you eat during activity and a quarter hour after the bike, gets absorbed better in the musculature. It arrives much faster, because the cells are still working. That means if you can eat on the bike, and can also eat properly right after, and also right after... A handful of gummy bears, that's perfect. You don't have to get off the bike and shove down oatmeal right away. Those come too slowly, instead really what arrives fast. Absorb directly, and then you'll be much better fueled than if you do it differently.

Niclas: Yeah, definitely. I then also looked a bit in the same vein at what actually happens with low carb stuff, so when energy runs through you, because that's also always discussed and I think will be coming back soon. What happens, or does it have advantages if we train low carb?

Björn: Okay, but do you really think it's coming back?

Niclas: Yeah, I think it's really coming back. It'll definitely, everything comes back. I think the trend is coming, and I also think we have to think a bit smarter. It's more about the gene expression, so to speak. What type you are. Well, no, how can you trigger with certain nutritional approaches? For athletes, for high-performance athletes, the topic is relatively, I'd say, off the table, because we train so much anyway that we potentially run ourselves empty permanently, but... I found something there, it's a systematic review, a meta-analysis. Responses to exercise with low carbohydrate availability on muscle glycogen and cell signaling. And so, what actually happens with low carb status before, during, and after training on molecular adaptation processes in the musculature. And especially gene expression and glycogen status. And then they looked at it a bit. Low carb and high carb stuff. And yeah, of course we have some markers that spike. Also, effects of low carb on gene expression and so on are also partly elevated. But the exciting thing is actually, this PGC1-alpha doesn't have such a hugely significant effect under low carb. The effect only occurs when we have a strong drop. So it's really about, you have to ride yourself into a strong glycogen depletion, into a strong glycogen depletion. Then you have that effect. That means you start... No, no, listen. You do do that. You do that and athletes who train with me do that now and then. And now think about when we do that.

Björn: when we burn through energy really hard over days.

Niclas: No, not necessarily. It's the days before races. That means if we have a race on Sunday, we usually ride long again on Thursday. Like five, six hours, and partly also a bit under, I'd say, not completely empty carbs, so we don't ride ourselves into, I'd say, reduced intake, like at 60 percent, so you come home a bit grilled. And then we have this drainage. And this effect, which you definitely know, or I know it especially well, you ride yourself once really into the basement, and then you have the next day, or two days later, a brutal base-level. On the other hand, especially, that's Team Classic, we also have this refilling of glycogen stores a bit higher. You don't have to do it as intensely as Saltin described back then. With well-trained athletes it goes fast in two days. You don't need to do three days low carb and not eat anything anymore, train yourself completely into the ground. But that's really what it's about. We need this drop to be relatively high, and then we have this gene expression. They say, we start reasonably full and ride ourselves really empty, then that fits. We need a carb restriction, that's not enough. We need to start full and arrive empty. That's what it's about.

Björn: Yeah, that was fit. That's great. Once you've done that.

Niclas: Yeah, so I ride myself empty for four weeks straight.

Björn: If I have the choice between, we do four weeks of low carb or I ride myself empty once on Thursday, then that's obviously something different.

Niclas: That's true. Totally exciting. That's why I also think that these... that these ideas of how to fine-tune nutritional strategies a bit more, and not just, we're in a phase of, still in a kind of sledgehammer phase. We used to be in this low carb sledgehammer phase, around 2008, 2009, 2010, also with Sky still, we did a lot of low carb. And now we've kind of swung to more is better, more is everything. 160 grams, all in, whether we puke it out five times and still become Ironman European champion. It doesn't matter. I think we're going to experience something soon, and I see it partly already, that we kind of... shape the carb intake.

Björn: I think exactly the person you just alluded to, Olav Alexander Bu, would, or at least you just alluded to Kristian Blummenfelt, but his coach is Bu, who basically steers all of it. he would probably want to disagree with you a bit right now, because what I see with him and what he at least, he probably could follow the line of thought, but he would probably also at least in public propagate, no, more carbs is always better, no matter what. At least he's doing that currently at UNO-X. The riders just had a press post where it was also said, yeah, they see the trend more towards, we'll all, or all pros, will basically have one, two kilos more on their ribs, and thus also achieve better watts per kilogram, because they fundamentally achieve, over, let's say 24-7 the whole day, better fueling, and therefore regenerate better, and therefore also in turn simply become more performant. And basically through that can build so much more absolute watts, that this compensates for the watts per kilogram, the one, two kilos more you then have.

Niclas: Yeah, so to say, contradicting. I'll just throw that out as a thesis. What happens? And I can imagine there will be people who experiment with it. Of course, the question is always, even if we can take in very high carb amounts in training, the question is always, how well do we put that, can we also implement it in the race, because the big danger is always, I mean, 160 grams, you already think, that's really brutally a lot. That works. So no, no, it's especially not a lot for the body. If someone with, no idea, if you're riding around with however many watts per kilo, 400 watts, then you're also blowing through three, 400 grams of carbs an hour quickly. That means intake is already the limiting factor. And the other, and that's actually maybe even much more interesting, is that with high-intensity stuff, so someone attacking, we just switch off beta-oxidation, fat metabolism. That's the big problem. If we run a metabolic simulation, then, to put it bluntly, a wattage also always defines the carb or the mix of macronutrients. How many proteins, carbs, and fats are going through right now. If you had a spiro mask on now, you'd see that. But it's not that simple, because those aren't fixed values. If you ride yourself once into the ground, then your metabolism runs a bit differently afterwards. Then you don't say, okay, I'm riding 500 watts now, that means I'm riding 100% carbs, and then I ride 100 watts again and I'm in fat metabolism again. Not true. So beta-oxidation is restricted. massively restricted, can be restricted really long. That means we have a clearly higher carb consumption. And that's actually the exciting thing. That's also the thing of, how can you still simulate that the carb metabolism is still lagging behind. And then I'll be really mean now, now we add the third dimension: cadence. Yeah, I mean cadence.

Björn: Yeah, exactly, we had that topic recently.

Niclas: Exactly, so that's the next dimension now. How do we get cadence in there, in the sense of, am I turning slowly and activating maybe many slow fibers, but then have a lactate buildup in the muscle, or am I turning a bit faster and breaking the lactate down.

Björn: You burn, depending on what you ride, differently.

Niclas: Exactly. That's the exciting thing. If you look at the simulations we currently have, Mader or Heck, the various parameters they established back then, it's usually, I think, tested at 90 RPM. And that's problematic. If you look at the Heck simulation, then we actually see, at least when we simulate and rebuild it, we actually always see that under constant conditions we get really good data, and constant means in the lab. 100 watts, 100 watts and there's no peak. But when we run this on real-world data, or have someone ride a sprint, then the PCR reserve, creatine phosphate, the very fast reserves rush totally empty, and then this model doesn't work anymore. Then it craps out. And with Mader it works, but there we have to work clearly on increasing VO2max. But there are also problems there, of course. So in the end we're not there yet. The wisdom hasn't been finalized yet. And especially cadences, and simulating restriction of fat metabolism. Those are also things that are coming. And then you see, on a Cape Epic stage, when they really push, really hard, and afterwards actually only a bit of sweet spot, and you think, actually they could ride faster, why don't they? They just switched off the fat metabolism really briefly.

Björn: And that's also... You can't forget that. If you ride an Egger sweet spot, then at those high watt numbers insanely high amounts of carbs still go through. And if his fat metabolism is completely off, he can, so to speak... It's super hard to refill that. You ride yourself empty at the end of such a stage.

Niclas: Right. And that's also, that's why I think that maybe such an approach will come back. We see now with Pogačar or Jonas Vingegaard that they compete with high VO2max, of course. And actually only the two of them can keep up. Everyone else who does that burns themselves and runs empty over three weeks. And Sky solved it very differently back then. I mean, that's already a long time ago. They just said, we ride watts per kilo and we just don't follow these attacks. Of course with the limits, they also had low carb of course.

Björn: Actually, a tactic that, when you hear it all now, is super smart. Because with that, we can sustain it for three weeks, because our riders don't shoot their fat metabolism off and don't ride themselves to death.

Niclas: When Vingegaard won the Tour for the first time, they did it exactly like that. Pogačar attacked many times, they just kept the base pace brutally high. The whole time, the whole time, the whole time. And then this rabbit just attacked. But Pogačar is just a brutal exception. With his mega VO2max and his good glycolytic performance, he can really blast stuff away there. But the riders are catching up. Training is getting smarter. Especially nutrition, and carbs play a massive role there, makes a big difference, and then you don't have to reach for forbidden substances much or fundamentally reach for them. I mean, they used to train so low that they didn't build any lactate anymore, and you just fill it up with red blood cells, and then you have a wonderful VO2max and ride 7 watts around the whole time. I mean, how wild is that, riding 500 watts up the mountains, is just nuts, yeah. When Armstrong rode 7 watts up a Tour stage, up the Madonne I think, then it's just crazy. So it's completely off the charts. And then with the equipment, you can't forget that either, he wasn't aerodynamic at all, or we were still kind of in the beginnings. With tires that didn't roll, it's just completely spooky. But I think, to come back to the point, we have a high carb phase now. I can imagine there will be changes there.

Björn: But then more in the direction, we don't stop doing everything high carb, but we, so to speak I'd say now, we supplement. We supplement this high carb phase, we go only, only, only high carb, we deliberately do targeted low carb at very specific points, but then refuel very, very well afterwards. to then come out of it with a better effect, or an effect that we want with rider X at point in time X.

Niclas: Yeah, exactly. I also fished out another study on that. I have to check, when is it from actually? Oh, can't find it now. So it was 'A 5-Week Periodised Carbohydrate Diet Does Not Improve Maximal Lactate Steady State Exercise Capacity'. So simply put, you let a few people ride low, you let a few people ride high, and then they looked at MLSS and found, nothing happens. They took 17 well-trained riders. VO2max peak was around 70. I think they really only measured peak, because they have a threshold of 250. So either they don't weigh anything, really nothing, nothing at all.

Björn: Or they weren't so well trained.

Niclas: Yeah, if they had outrageous glycolytic performance too, but I just think they only took a peak, a one-second peak, and not a smoothed performance, so they probably had somewhere around 60, and were still all very light, and then you had a periodised carbohydrate group, where 13 of 35 training sessions were done with low carb availability, and then you had a high carbohydrate group who just ate the whole time. And they did absolutely identical training, don't know if that's sensible, you could also, though, sure, you want to compare. And what happened? Nothing happened. That's actually totally, so significantly actually little happened. The periodised carbohydrate group gained 30 watts on average, but also started at 245 watts. And the other group gained 16 watts, but also started a bit lower. That's not yet a significant improvement. Now you can say, okay, the periodised carb availability had a slight increase. So you do see that in the study, even if it says it's significant. So significant it isn't, but we see a difference. Yeah, time to exhaustion at MLSS, so both rode the same, that should also be the case, usually, muscle mass was the same for both, or rather increased the same, body fat percentage decreased significantly in both groups, I don't know, I have to look at the training again, if they're just blasting away the whole time and knocking out serious kilojoules, then you get thinner. And yeah, no differences in substrate use or utilization, better said. Carb and fat burning was identical, heart rate and so on, everything the same. Lactate and so on, also similar. What we see is maybe a slight increase in threshold power, but that wasn't significant either for those who periodised. Of course, as always in sports science, I mean, 17 riders is really thin ice. That's really nothing. That's nothing. That's really nothing at all. Those are the things I picked out a bit. And now everyone can make of it what they want. We see, that's the mean thing, it causes crazy amounts of confusion. But what you can say, in a race, in a race really try, or in a training too, if you know, I want to really knock out one again the next day, the carbs just have to be right. You can't, and I'm like a broken record here, in training you can't start fantasizing about Haribo bears, because then you already know, that's the day, tomorrow will be shit in training. You have to come home and say, I don't have such a huge hunger. And afterwards also pull in well, and then the next day it runs, especially if you really, really hard loaded yourself.

Björn: Absolutely. I see it the same way. Now let's... so people get an idea of what a rider is after the Cape Epic when he's really loaded hard. Or also between stages, what kind of amounts are we talking about?

Niclas: Yeah, so I'd say 12 grams per kilo of body weight we should somehow get in throughout the day.

Björn: Okay, throughout the day, but that already includes the load on the bike.

Niclas: Yeah, yeah, it's always a bit, yeah. Always look a bit. It's actually quite a lot. 12 grams. So if we somehow, let's say, we have, I'm a math cracker actually.

Björn: 12 grams in my case would be somewhere between 1.5 and 2 kilos of pasta.

Niclas: Yeah, uncooked.

Björn: Yeah, exactly, uncooked.

Niclas: That's a lot. And that's also a digestion thing. That's why things like cutting out fats, or few fats, cutting out fiber. It's just pure shoveling in. Shoveling in the simplest carbs. Rice pudding cooked in oat milk. or pasta or rice. So no potatoes, they're not energy-dense enough. So it's just junk food. Haribos. Exactly. White bread with honey. Exactly. In the hope you don't get constipated, though your stomach is so messed up anyway that it's usually not a problem. In South Africa you don't get constipated. Did I tell you the story? I was at Epic back then with Centurion VD, and I'll say the sanitary situation has always been tough in Africa, at least at the Epic. It used to be. Now basically every team goes to a house. Oh right, exactly. At least there was, for the people who slept in the tent, a lot of people always sleep in the tent, there was a row, I don't know, 50 Dixie toilets next to each other. Yeah, and also showers and so on. And I was there, I was washing up, and there were these Dixie toilets and these showers, and suddenly a shower next to a Dixie toilet exploded. Really, it flew upward. And I thought, oh my god, the door flew out, the toilet flew upward, huge drama, it splattered everywhere, and you don't know how many feces were flying around. And I only thought, oh my god, where's the person who was in there? But luckily no one was in it. It was a major explosion, it was impressive. I remember it very vividly. Yeah, it was very, very exciting. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, so from that, always have food with you. So I make it relatively simple. Best practice. I don't feel like mixing drinks and things together. I recommend it, though, because it's simple and easy. You buy a sack of Malto and then it's easy, and maybe fructose if you want, if you drink a bit harder. I have a recipe I send to my athletes. Or that. I keep it simple. I have in front... I have lots of great bikes, but I love riding an ancient gravel bike of mine. And I have an Ortlieb handlebar bag on it. In this Ortlieb handlebar bag I have Haribos. And specifically I always have the Pico Balla. You know them?

Björn: Yeah, sure.

Niclas: They're awesome.

Björn: I actually don't like them.

Niclas: Why are we even still talking? And you can snack those away so wonderfully. You have 100, 200 grams. That's maybe already a pretty big pack, but there's also 100 grams, I think. Or you take Katjes, there's no fat in them, if you want to pay attention to that.

Björn: Katjes Grünohrhasen they're called, I think.

Niclas: I find them awesome. I take yogurt gums, I find them super. I imagine there's protein in them, but I don't think there's protein in them. I always think, those are BCAAs made tasty. That'd be sick. There's definitely that. There's probably protein gums, right? Yeah, but do you think there are protein gums that also taste good? That's the problem with amino acids. They always taste like shit. And if they taste good, then you know, that's a lot of scientific shit in it.

Björn: Yeah, so actually I'm just a friend of normal Haribos. Yeah, exactly. Classic gold bears always work.

Niclas: Yeah, I could pull out a few more studies, but I think we've slowly exhausted it now, and three-quarters or seven-eighths of the listeners are already driven off if I start with simulations. But it was a fun podcast for me too now.

Björn: Definitely. And what you should actually take away from this, I think, is that athletes have to learn, really, if they and also for the hobby athlete or amateur athlete training 15 hours, fuel yourself properly on the bike. That's here and there definitely challenging, but it's actually easier than you think. So these 80 grams on the bike.

Niclas: Yeah, I mean, that's not challenging. In Germany, honestly, if you run empty, you just ride to the gas station.

Björn: Yeah, you need the liter of Coke.

Niclas: Yeah, Coke or Haribo. Oh, nice anecdote. I don't drink caffeine, you know. Or if then only a Coke Light. I recently grabbed, besides a Pepsi Max, I grabbed a Pepsi Max. Had two cans and drank them cozily before work or during work. And at some point I notice, whoa, somehow low blood sugar, I don't feel good at all. And then I was cooking and thought, hey, I'm about to pass out here. Really strange. Then I found out. Pepsi Max has double the amount of caffeine as a Coke Light. And I was totally shocked, and it was really a lot. Dude, if you fed that to kids, which you don't of course, you don't give kids Coke, that's wild stuff. I was totally on it.

Björn: Okay, didn't know that.

Niclas: Yeah, learned something again.

Björn: That for me as a caffeine junkie, Pepsi is super.

Niclas: Yeah, so actually, if you don't feel like coffee or have no coffee available, grab Pepsi Max. Sick, learned something again.

Björn: That's what I'm taking away from this podcast. Very good.

Niclas: I was asked recently, Mieke was here. I gave Mieke a gift. Do you know stick insects? Or ghost insects? Those are animals that look like sticks.

Björn: Okay.

Niclas: Those are insects, they're this big.

Björn: Ah, the picture from Instagram from yesterday, the day before?

Niclas: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think yesterday. And she was here, they're now riding at Wörthersee with Annem. And we have so many of these critters. They're our pets. And I gave her a few stick insects. They're now at Wörthersee. Not bad, if little sticks walk around there. At least Mieke asked me, my top 4 films. Okay. That was really, I thought about that for two days. Top 4 films. Now it gets hard.

Björn: I just watched one of my favorite films again with my girlfriend, because now the second part is coming to the cinema. The Accountant. With whom? It's about a tax consultant. Slash also kind of somewhere. Actually it's a tax consultant, but he has Asperger's syndrome and is a genius mathematician.

Niclas: Don't all Aspergers become tax consultants? Yeah.

Björn: And he was the son of an army governor and his dad taught him extremely well to fight, shoot, and all that stuff. And he basically became the tax consultant of the Mafia and the biggest criminals in the world, and was therefore hunted by the Americans. And the film is about trying to find out who is the Accountant.

Niclas: Ben Affleck.

Björn: So I find the film awesome and now the second film is coming to the cinema, and that's why I had to watch it with my girlfriend, and I'm looking forward to when we can go to the cinema soon and watch the second part.

Niclas: So the last films I watched in the cinema were, I watched, what was it called, Babygirl with Nicole Kidman. Was okay. Then I saw the Bob Dylan film, or about Bob Dylan, I found that pretty good too. Then The Substance, I found that outstanding, with Demi Moore, but none of those are films that reach my top ranks. So, Eastern Promises is a really great film. You know it?

Björn: Doesn't ring any bells.

Niclas: You're watching it tonight.

Björn: Eastern Promises, you have to show me that later.

Niclas: Eastern Promises by David Cronenberg, I think. With Viggo Mortensen. Great film. Great. And Armin Müller-Stahl. Great film. Naomi Watts in the lead role. Great. Then there are also funny films like Adam's Apples. Also a nice film. Also with Mads Mikkelsen in the lead role as a pastor. I remember, I saw it back then in Hamburg with my roommate, who came from... Japan, a Japanese pianist, and she was deeply disturbed because I found this film insanely funny and was laughing my head off. It's also got, has a very black humor, kind of dogma-Danish stuff. But now we're already completely off from the original. Yeah.

Björn: Okay. So the message to all athletes, eat more carbs.

Niclas: Exactly. And watch good ones. Please. If you have good films, send us your favorite films. I want to learn something. So I've just proposed that, and Niclas, The Accountant with Ben Affleck as Asperger's. Can you even still say Asperger's? It's politically already tricky, right? Because Aspergers were, I think, the ones who in the Third Reich were considered a bit smarter, and autists were just gotten rid of. Oh, yeah.

Björn: Yeah, sad.

Niclas: But I'm not sure now. I could be on really thin ice here.

Björn: I'll just not comment on that.

Niclas: That's also always better.

Björn: Just shut up. I only talk about things I half know.

Niclas: Yeah, dangerous half-knowledge is the best.

Björn: Thanks for listening, and optimally we'll hear each other again next week. Thank you.

Niclas: See you soon. Ciao, ciao.