Short Christmas Talk

Björn: Welcome to the Afasteryou Podcast, where everything revolves around endurance sports and training. Here, Sebastian Schluricke, Björn Kafka, and Niclas Ranker give you valuable tips and insights to help you take your performance to the next level. So, merry Christmas and welcome to a new episode of the Afasteryou Podcast. Good morning, Björn. Good morning. Seven a.m. It's definitely by far the earliest recording we've ever done.

Niclas: And I hope it stays that way. Yeah, I don't know about that. Well, it's the circumstances, of course. Christmas, and you still need to get Christmas presents — I just did that. And my wife has her birthday too. Which means I was standing in the kitchen until one a.m. last night baking a cake. I'm pretty fried, and I had to sneak out of the house. I can't record the podcast in the office downstairs, otherwise they might notice. And of course I want to let them sleep. So I had to go out to the shed, and the shed is obviously super cold. That means, if you hear a bit of noise in the background, that's the space heater.

Björn: Yeah, you're sitting there in a thick winter jacket and a hat too.

Niclas: Yeah, I had to start ten minutes later too, otherwise it would have been too cold. But now, it's slowly getting there. Okay, okay, okay. Good. This probably won't be the longest episode in the world.

Björn: No, but it's Christmas. People shouldn't be listening to tons of podcasts right now, they should be spending time with their family.

Niclas: Sure, they should clean the house.

Björn: Or because they're currently tackling the Rapha Festive or doing other nonsense, cleaning the bike every day, because if you ride in this weather out here — yeah — it's just as much work as cleaning a house. Exactly. Very good. So, now here.

Niclas: You as a top coach — and I don't mean that ironically — how do you handle it with your athletes when Christmas is like this? What do they do?

Björn: Well, first of all, I've already asked most of them in advance, or asked again yesterday, what their availability is over the holidays. Many bring it up themselves and say, okay, look — some have basically no time, others have tons of time, and for some nothing changes at all. I'm actually, especially when it comes to the Christmas holidays, as long as the athlete says they have normal activities planned, I'm usually for taking it a bit easier, because you're spending time with family and normally you don't get that much of it. And, well, it always depends on the circumstances, sure, but at first just take it a bit easier, because it's cold outside, it's wet outside. Training a ton right now — sure, you can do it. But I also have athletes who have to train really hard right now in this weather, because they're doing a stage race in Spain early in the year and want to be fit for it. Those guys are being worked hard, and in this weather it's really brutal. Which is something we want to talk about in a bit — what can you maybe do, or how to prepare or recover.

Niclas: How's it on your end? Yeah, similar. Who has time, who doesn't. I'm such a family person. Which reminds me — why is there a light on upstairs in my living room? Are my kids already awake?

Björn: Or you just left it on.

Niclas: No, it's this weird light. They're out looking for presents. No, they're all in my other office. Similar to you. Always asking how the schedule looks and so on. And more on the reduced side. There are of course people who want to ride five hours on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day — want to, not have to. I know the type, I like to do it too. Yeah, those are the poor souls who don't have a family. Yeah. No, it's all good. And then you just piece it together. Of course, for people who work, these days are great because you can really rack up the kilometers. You can find some motivation somewhere, Rapha 500 or whatever it's still called.

Björn: It's officially called the Rapha Festive 500. In the last few years, I've always celebrated it with one of your athletes, Günni, Markus — we always turned it into 1000 kilometers. Yeah, there's no other way to do it. Yeah, because honestly, it's what, eight days I think — as an ambitious cyclist, riding only 500 kilometers across those days isn't really a challenge. Unless you do it really old-school. There are people who actually ride it in one go. I find that a bit crazy in this weather, I have to say. But we always tried to do the thousand kilometers over those eight days. And that does get stressful.

Niclas: Yeah, it always depends on which bike. Funnily enough, I always wanted to do it. It's been around forever. Yeah. And something always got in the way. And yeah, this year I thought about it too, but I'm not going to make it again. And I'd do it somehow — two hours in the morning and then tack on another hour in the afternoon. And ideally take a bike that rolls insanely fast. I'd already thought about it — okay, I'll take the aero wheels and the Conti 5000. And then it really rolls nicely. Because, I mean, you don't want to be out there on the mountain bike or with some ancient crappy bad-weather bike averaging 20 km/h, because then it's a slog. But when you're rolling at 30 average, it's a completely different thing. And ideally in a group. Or you do it in Spain, then you just do it in two days.

Björn: Exactly, you do it in Spain or you do it on the trainer. But that's a bit... Yeah, wait up — the first Festive 500s I rode were actually mostly on the trainer. And I have to say, back then — and this is also one of the reasons I like indoor training, or partially like it — is because you really ride long and easy, and it's super effective, because everyone is super effective compared to riding outside, constantly having to stop. You don't get wet, you don't get cold, and you have way more time in the zone. So from that aspect, riding on the trainer and racking up kilometers is pretty awesome. But I have to say, a bit of Festive 500 on the trainer is also a bit of a cheat, because the kilometers kind of come for free. On Zwift you're averaging 35. No big deal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no.

Niclas: So the trainer — I know it's great and I'm also a big fan of indoor training, but I don't put myself through it. I see the trainer just gathering dust and I think, we should really get on it. My kids like to hop on it sometimes.

Björn: Yeah. That's already better than not riding at all. Even better, I think. Do it quickly. We can try it out. What I can definitely tell people — but most probably already know this if they Zwift — is to just pick out events. So when you ride in an event, that's always helped me a lot mentally, because you had to stay with this virtual group somehow. I'd also always twice a day — I'd ride three hours in the morning and three hours in the afternoon, or always pick those 100-kilometer group rides and try to stay with the group there. Then you're mentally more in it, and the time flies by much faster than if you just mindlessly grind out your tempo session. So that was always kind of my trick for getting the time on the trainer to pass well. And then, really for riding outside — I do it, or I really enjoy doing it. Over the Christmas holidays I'm always in the Saarland, and then you just meet up with people. No idea, every morning at 10 you meet up, ride your 4-5 hours, and then you actually get through the days quite well. Because I find, in a group like that with the same goal — okay, we're riding 1000 kilometers this week or whatever — it goes down really well. And it's also kind of funny when you meet up six, seven, eight days in a row and ride the same route.

Niclas: That's pretty cool. Back in Husum there were only two people who did it — well, two people who rode a lot. That was me and my friend André, and we'd always ride alone on those days and it was pretty grueling. And we always did it — I had this, I actually still have it, it just came to mind, this ancient handlebar bag, and I always filled it with cookies. And then we'd ride, and on January 25, no wait, December 25 — — I'm telling you, 7:18 a.m., I'm still not there. There's always this big party in Husum, or at least back then, and we'd go to it at the Speicher, and you'd usually stay until 4 or 5 in the morning, and then you'd get back on the bike at 9.

Björn: Whoa.

Niclas: Yeah, and that can obviously end badly. I remember with horror some rides where I felt absolutely miserable, and once I felt so miserable that on Nordstrand — the peninsula, on that causeway that goes across, from Cecilien Cook, that's a super insider reference — I had to lie down in the frozen grass because I felt so sick. So, those are experiences you don't have to have, but I did. And I just said, André, just keep riding, I'm staying here. And he said, no, you're standing up. And then somehow he pushed me through those last twelve kilometers. And afterwards I got sick too. Strange.

Björn: But isn't that the perfect transition when people are planning something like this? So if they now — look, I'd say the average person doesn't regularly ride 500 kilometers in a week. So for some it's like a small training camp. Now for many people there's maybe a training camp coming up in January or February anyway. What are your standard tips for doing a training camp? For preparations beforehand, during, and after, so that you don't get sick and maybe even get the best effect out of it.

Niclas: Well, standard trick number one — for a normal person, lots of kilometers and lots of alcohol don't mix. No.

Björn: Okay, yeah. But most people should figure that out, I'd hope.

Niclas: Yeah, sure. Even though alcohol is calorically even a bit higher, it gets absorbed badly and lands directly in the liver. So you can save yourself the seven calories that are in alcohol. First — eating. Super simple, yeah. I have this discussion pretty much every day — you can't eat enough, and especially over the holidays. I mean, for many people it's also a relatively high stress load. You meet people you rarely see, and you also meet people you maybe don't want to meet at all. Keyword: chosen family and forced family. I have a great family.

Björn: That's a really nice term, forced family. You don't know it?

Niclas: No. Good upbringing. By the way, I believe in ERs, around this time there are also the most cases. People collapse from heart attacks and so on, or have some other issue, because it's a high level of stress you're putting yourself under. So... And if you then pile on more stress in the form of cycling, there are two things you should consider above all. Keep the cycling easy. Hey, please don't start hammering out intervals. Unless your coach wrote that down and feels you're mentally stable enough for it. And second, just eat. Hey, really just eat. And don't have this feeling of — I have to ride five hours fasted because there's a Christmas goose waiting. Although — I'm being mean now — for one athlete I actually did write that. I never write fasted training, but I know — there's going to be massive amounts of food, and I also know what it does to him mentally. So I said, you get to ride fasted for an hour and a half. In the morning like, no breakfast. And then afterwards there's a real feast. But that's more the mental aspect. Awesome. Awesome, right? That's the thing, I just caught it too. So it's simple. Drop down a gear compared to usual and take one more spoonful than usual, and then you'll manage lots of kilometers too.

Björn: Yeah, so that would be my number one tip too — really, ride easy. The second is eat enough. Especially with the cold temperatures. I just had an athlete the other day where we also wrote down many hours, because he's up for it, he has the time right now. Where I also said — you're riding the whole time in near-freezing, zero-degree weather, it's wet, it's cold, your body has to produce extra heat just to cope. So — eat, eat, eat. We're so far away from the season still. Totally irrelevant what you weigh. First — eat, get through it well, stay healthy. And I found this interesting too. We were just in Girona at a three-week training camp. You jerk. Yeah, thanks. Two of my athletes were there too. And one of the athletes' takeaway after this training camp was, dude, what are you guys eating? Because it was really — the guys, I'd say, most of the guys, or all of them, across the board, they all already ride pretty fast. And you sit down at the breakfast table in the morning and everyone shovels down well over 100 grams of oats with banana, apple, honey, a few cornflakes on top, and then maybe snacks on something small before riding. Then you go out and ride for 5, 6, 7, 8 hours, and then in the evening various pots of pasta get emptied. And that was really his learning — okay, especially when you ride a lot of volume, just eat even more. And you can really only eat too little. Like, if you train 30 hours a week, you can't catch up with how much you need to eat, so eat. And then it shouldn't be a problem to ride a lot and get through it easily without getting seriously sick. Exactly.

Niclas: A quick anecdotal observation — anecdotal evidence, as they say — the development of oxygen uptake, or let's call it 4-to-5-minute maximum performance capacity, is progressing much better for athletes who eat significantly more. And especially during training too. In the last two years, I've noticed it, and especially with the luck that there's this trend now of eating a lot. I always write in how many grams of carbs someone should eat, and then one of them says, yeah, but I eat around 80 grams per hour. I'm like, really, even in the base zone? Yeah, yeah. And I noticed this a few times with athletes. And they have incredibly good 4-to-5-minute values. And this — I'll call it overfueling — because what we actually look at is, what happens in the spiro for example, how many grams of carbs are you burning through, and from that we derive how many grams you should eat. Then there are of course these recommendations — like, the first hour you don't need anything, and then you start with 30 grams, and mouth rinsing and so on. That's best practice. And I've noticed that especially when volume is being smashed out — eating. Even this theoretical overfueling always leads to people being not exhausted, in a good mood, stable immune system, and adapting significantly better. And so this is one aspect — no fear of gingerbread, no fear of shortcrust pastry, just bring it on. And otherwise, especially over Christmas. But it's like talking to a wall. I find it really wild. And now, I mean, we've been doing this for a while — these carb recommendations. I remember when we started with it, it was the thing, when we wrote in how many grams someone should eat ten years ago, that was huge. And back then the amounts weren't this high either. Was Sky still riding low carb? That Wiggins guy, no idea, eating his beetroot soup and still riding two, three hours low carb. And back then, eating wasn't the huge topic, which is really interesting. And getting that out of people's heads, and especially the fear that you'll get fat during training. No, that's not going to happen. So, relax — we always have an efficiency factor, and you can convert kilojoules roughly into calories, depending on how good the efficiency is, but you're burning through so much. And of course some body fat is being used, which is perfectly sensible, and some carbohydrates. Ideally, you give the carbs you should consume, and if it's a few more, then it's a few more. So what? Theoretically. And then there are also things like, muscle fibers also fatigue, and then others get recruited, and then everything shifts around a bit again. So we can't really look in permanently — nobody rides four, five hours with a spiro mask on. And there's also the question — this is basically, how should I say, we're only calculating something from breathing gases. That means if I dump carbs straight in, it looks different again. Or if I fast for two days, my metabolism looks different again. So — simple — eat.

Björn: Yeah, well, the best example — and I thought this was awesome when it came up last year at the Tour de France — was Jonas Abrahamsen, who also said very publicly, yo, only since I've put on 5, 6, 7, 8 kilos has he been riding this well, and only now is he really performing. And that fits exactly with what you're also saying, and also somewhat with The Norwegian Method — with the Norwegians — that simply through high carb intake and maybe also a bit more body weight, you achieve higher VO2 Max values, and you just become significantly more performant in absolute terms and have a bigger engine. So it works across the board in cycling, definitely. Sure, maybe not if you want to ride GC and do 4,000 to 5,000 meters of climbing every day. But just look at the Speed Company guys — they're not exactly the lightest either. They're ultra fit, and precisely because they have such a huge engine and can just pedal forever, they ride super fast and then win Cape Epic and such. And you don't win that if you're the skinny boy who eats too little all the time. But —

Niclas: Compound score. Sure, that's not as good. Absolutely more mass and more power. Which means on flat terrain you roll like a big hunk of Swiss cheese rolling down the hill — you just blast down there like a truck and nothing can stop you. No, but definitely — above all, I think, you don't always have to look like a plucked chicken. And it's a nicer life with a bit more muscle or maybe even body fat, because body fat is actually a totally genius thing. I always find it fascinating that we manage to strap an energy reserve onto our bodies. And that's your life insurance, or my life insurance. Sometimes the life insurance is too big. That's — how to put it — too much invested. Too much invested, too much on there. I could currently easily live for two, could live two lives. Yeah, all good.

Björn: You always have to add that. This basically applies to people who, say, ride 20, 25, 30 hours. So if you're only doing 5 hours of sport a week, you obviously can't just throw endless amounts of food at yourself, but yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Niclas: Yeah, and what else do we have? Right — eating, we've covered. Of course, dress warm. You can hop on the trainer. You can also do two training sessions a day if you feel like it — ride yourself so low in the morning that you basically come home done, if you want, collapse on the sofa and dissociate while the grandparents tell stories from the past, and then eat. And then you release the built-up frustration and sugar. That works too. Option two.

Björn: No, I'd rather eat properly and ride properly. Yeah, what I'd definitely do — dress warm enough, check the weather, don't ride through the absolute pissing rain. Then definitely, from Paul, best trick — fenders. Especially when it gets really wet, just long fenders. I don't have them on again. I'm also just going to ride the mountain bike. But in general — exactly. In general, I'd say definitely put fenders on, and then go train.

Niclas: Yeah, and then, I said this last time too — the fender can't be long enough. And we used to have these Blümels, I think that's what they were called, or they were called, from SKS. We always extended them with Poptites or silicone bottles cut open. So you had it extended at the bottom. Like, only one centimeter should stick out at the bottom, and it works wonders. First, you don't get a dirty backside, and second, the person behind you doesn't get dirty either — because that's actually the number one reason for fenders. Nobody gets dirty, not even the person behind you.

Björn: Yeah, but the person behind you kind of deserves it a bit, because they're not riding in the wind the whole time. So I have to now — no, actually not. In Girona I was pulling from the front the whole time too.

Niclas: You're the Ikea shelving unit up front, the wardrobe. What are they supposed to do? The others weigh maximum — half. Well, with Paul. True. Yeah well, sure, you weigh 120 kilos too. I forgot.

Björn: On Saturn or what? No. I'd love to see one of those guys who weighs 120 kilos with his VO2 Max — he should hold that weight for two years but really ride a lot. I'd be interested to see what he could ride over 20 minutes all out. I mean, he just stomps the cranks off.

Niclas: Yeah, that's a good definition of how much he could — come on, I'll do the math quickly. It's not that hard. They always have such high lactate production unfortunately. Yeah, then let's say, no idea, five minutes. Five minutes is better. Five minutes definitely. Alright, let's see. Let's say he weighs 95 kilos.

Björn: Wasn't there — in some podcast it was mentioned, I think, RTF or something, about those rowing-boat riders — well, the sailors — who used to do it with their arms and now do it with their legs, at the American Challenge Cup or something. And they can ride over 500 watts for an unbelievably long time because they're such big guys, heavy. No, no, they used to do it with their arms, now they do it with their legs because they can produce much more power. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. They're sitting down inside and pedaling on an ergometer to adjust sails or something. And they're brutally strong.

Niclas: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I'd estimate — a 95-kilo guy like that would ride 700 watts. 650. Yeah, why? That's 7 watts per kilo.

Björn: Yeah, but look — in absolute power.

Niclas: That's pretty wild — you're riding, most people ride that only for 30 seconds. That's insane. I had an experience once with Stefan Niemke, evening sprinter, I think even Olympic champion and world champion. I rode a few races with him. And he had this thing about him. Once in a road race he just rode away sitting down. And it was like, no idea, 1000 watts for who knows how long. And there was nobody left. It was just — nobody could stay with him, and he was gone. That was very impressive, I have to say.

Björn: I think Peter Leo supported the Australian track team — the Australian team pursuit — or still supports them. He works for Australia. And he said they're averaging 650 watts over the three and a half minutes. And that's already — and in aero position. So 600 watts average?

Niclas: Really? I have to calculate that. Well, I think he said something like that. Or are you saying they're too aerodynamic? I can calculate it quickly.

Björn: What average speed are they riding? 60? Now I'd have to start researching what's been going on the whole time. But I think they're doing around 3.5 minutes, or 3:40 is the world record. They just set another world record at the Olympics, didn't they? Wasn't it something like that?

Niclas: I'm currently more into the women's side. Since the Germans haven't been fast on the track since 2000, I don't watch it anymore. Yeah, but Björn, you need to make them fast. We have a new track coach, that just came to mind. I'm curious how he'll do, because the last few years we had Sven Meyer. Now I'm curious — the team pursuit was always kind of the flagship on the men's side, team pursuit was really the thing, world records and all that, Olympic Games, I remember well. And that faded away. We had a lot of really great track coaches. Heiko Salzwedel for example, he did a lot. I think Sven Meyer also worked with Heiko Salzwedel in Denmark, if I'm not mistaken. And Heiko Salzwedel unfortunately passed away. And he was really good. He also helped Bradley Wiggins back then with the hour record. He also worked with the British team pursuit. So that's the reference. And can quickly calculate how much... They also have a really impressive CRR value, those tires. They have really low rolling resistance. Should I calculate it quickly now? No, I won't do it now. Otherwise it takes too long. Next time I'll say how many watts they're pushing.

Björn: We could definitely put this on our topics list — maybe we look at the past Olympic Games, at the performances that were ridden there, and then look at what you have to put out in a team pursuit for example, what a Ganna does over his three minutes 50, 55, 59, what aerodynamic value you need, whatever. Yeah.

Niclas: So, hold on — distance, 4 kilometers. Now you're doing it after all. In seconds, distance, no, 4000 meters, no, is that kilometers? I don't even know anymore.

Björn: Big question — what do we need to plug into the calculator?

Niclas: No, I'll quickly do it here in my magic Excel sheet. I'll assume a CdA value of 16 — 17 to 16 is what they'll have, max. Then they're riding with 530 at 60 and 65. Peter Leo is right. They really are riding 650 with a CdA of 17.

Björn: It's the average — you have the standing start included.

Niclas: Yeah, exactly. Then you have to accelerate the thing up first. 3.6923 seconds. With a CRR value of 0.0032, I've ballparked it. And here the start-up isn't even included. So, it's a lot. That's really a lot. Yeah, but on the women's side too, they're rolling along with 4:50 and such up front, which are already wild numbers. But women are more aerodynamic than men, significantly more aerodynamic. Because of the shoulders? Yeah, they're just shaped better. Penguin shape. And not meant disrespectfully at all.

Björn: No, no — Peter Leo, I think, also said something about Evenepoel, that he's basically a penguin. Yeah, that's okay. I'd say in cycling, when you talk about penguin shape in cycling, it's a positive thing. Yeah, definitely. So Björn, now the big question about presents, Christmas. What's been your best cycling-specific Christmas present so far?

Niclas: The problem is, when you're so deep into the subject matter, you always just buy the things for yourself. That's really — unfortunately, nobody can give you something awesome, because you give yourself the great gifts. So honestly — no, I've always told people not to give me things for Christmas, and when things did come, it was stuff where you think, well, thanks. I mean, the Campagnolo pizza cutter was pretty cool, I was actually happy about that. But otherwise, no — some DVD of Hell on Wheels or something, stuff where you think, yeah, or some nice book, yeah. Clothing and such, please no, or not that stuff. You could maybe go to your trusted bike shop as a friend, acquaintance, or relative — ask what the person might need — but even they don't always know. I've always gotten my own stuff, and I'm always really happy about gifts I'm not expecting — that's actually the cooler thing — like a book. Or, no idea — there are these things, look at this here, nobody can see this right now, it looks like a donut. Yeah. If I'd gotten this for Christmas, I'd have been totally happy. It's a ring, a rubber ring, that's relatively firm, and you can squeeze it. As a hand trainer. As a hand trainer — I bought it at Decathlon, and I have to tell you, I'm totally into it, I'd need two of them constantly. It's for people like you and me who can't sit still and always have a ton on their plate, and aren't starting on top of our coaching lives to also build a company and hammer out 20 more hours a week. They still have rubber things, or they still ride bikes, and they still have a life. I'd have been totally happy to get that for my birthday, for example. For people with any hyperactive tendencies. So if you have someone — at Decathlon, super cheap. It's awesome. I just think it's great. Normally I always take paper clips apart and fiddle something out of them. And now I have this one. It's great. I love it. I always fail at the paper clips too. There was, many years ago — I was still very small — an Audi commercial. I think it was Audi, yeah. And this person — you only saw hands — formed a steering wheel out of a paper clip, and then how it looks with the steering column and everything. And then they showed that in a crash, this steering wheel in the Audi moves forward. And he did all that with just a paper clip, or with a piece of wire, weaving it. And I always have the idea, whenever I have a paper clip in my hand, that I'll twist it like that now. Which of course never works — they always break first, or I can never make it round enough. So you can just Google Audi commercial, paper clip. Yeah. Great — it stuck in my memory, but also with a lot of frustration, because I never manage it. Maybe I manage something else, no idea. I'm always happy when I can take those milk cartons that you can tear open with that handle in your hand — they don't exist anymore, you can flip it around and you have the Starship Enterprise. Awesome. Okay. But now — rubber ring, you can go buy it for all your relatives. It's great. I don't think that's the most perfect gift. Better than a glitter stone in Girona.

Björn: Yeah, probably. But I didn't find anything there for Christmas presents either. I got a fairly detailed list of what's on offer. Amazon list — which can't be redeemed today anymore. Yeah, there are always a few shops in the Saarland too. Really? So there's Zweibrücken, right. Yeah, there's Zweibrücken. And then for cyclists, even better — in Zweibrücken there's the outlet center, because they have an Oakley outlet store there. And it's really awesome. So if you're into Oakley, it's top tier. You can really get glasses at a good discount there, and especially — they always have this offer where if you buy two pairs of glasses, you get 50% off the second, and on the already reduced price. It's very dangerous. So as a cyclist, you shouldn't go there too often.

Niclas: Good thing I have an anonymous Oakley glasses supply.

Björn: Very good. Very good.

Niclas: Then happy holidays, Niclas, to all of you too. Nice short episode, little content, lots of nonsense.

Björn: I'm looking forward to it. Very good. Next week we'll do it a bit better. I'll have more time to prepare then. Very nice. Then merry Christmas. We'll hear each other again next week for the last episode of this year. Exactly. We'll talk, Björn. Ciao, ciao.