What Does It Take to Win the Tour de France Time Trial?

Björn: Hey, this is Björn. Just a quick note before we start — this episode is an AI-generated English version of our original German Afasteryou podcast. The voices you hear are cloned with AI. Enjoy the show. Welcome to the Afasteryou Podcast, where everything revolves around endurance sports and training. Sebastian Schluricke, Björn Kafka and Niclas Ranker share valuable tips and insights to help you take your performance to the next level. Welcome to a new episode of the Afasteryou Podcast after a little three-week break. Welcome, Björn. Welcome. I was on vacation. You were on vacation. Yeah.

Niclas: Where were you? I got in the camper and drove through Europe. All the way to southern Portugal. Southern Portugal, so really long drives. Really long drives, even some four-digit days, the way it should be. And then I visited my oldest friend, who I've known since I was four. He bought a farm in Portugal and dropped out, after making money at a big media or internet company. He still works there a bit, but now he lives this dropout life, which is pretty cool. It's wild. I had a great time with my family there, and then of course I went through Spain here and there, met people, the usual. And then I came back.

Björn: Learn anything new?

Niclas: A new insight from those three weeks? Yeah, actually quite a bit. It's always a question of perspective, and how quickly perspectives can change is always astonishing. When you live in a camper for several weeks, or rather at my buddy's place, in this Airstream trailer, those old ones, you know those tin cans? We lived in one of those. Shower outside and so on. It was awesome. Super awesome. And kitchen outside, a huge kitchen with three gas burners. So we cooked there every day too. The perspective shifts, and that's pretty funny. We came back home and I thought, now into our house, and we still have to do this and that, the usual. And you walk in and think, wow, you have space. I mean, four people in a camper is really shitty. And this rhythm of life — getting in, always rummaging around the bed, off again, many hours in the car, then arriving somewhere, setting everything up again. You're constantly in motion. You feel like you're doing nothing, but you're still doing something the whole time. And then you arrive here, wake up and just think, I don't actually have to do anything. Totally awesome. So it's really like, I have to come down from this hustle mode, as they say, and arrive at normal again, and appreciate what you have. It's like, I don't know, when you do these crazy diets where you don't eat carbs, and then you eat the first bowl of oatmeal. And you just think, this is the best thing in the world. And it's exactly like that. It's like a retreat, as they say. Just resetting everything to zero was pretty awesome. And now I'm back. Now many would say, now I'm totally energized, but unfortunately I'm not at all. I'm more still kind of searching. But it was really good. Yeah, also ideas about what you want to do in the future. If I don't want to be a coach anymore or something. Those are perspectives you have to keep open, and you do something like that.

Björn: Very nice, very nice. Sounds good. But I always notice that too — when you're traveling for a longer time, it's always fun. And being on the road is cool too, but coming out of the suitcase life, after two or three weeks you think, yeah, just being home again, getting up in the morning, making your breakfast. And when you're home too long, like I don't know, twelve weeks home and only training, then you wish again, I want to be on the road. I think it's always good to have a change of perspective, see something different, get out.

Niclas: Definitely. I used to do that regularly. During my studies, I always went to Norway and hiked north for months. I got off the ferry in Oslo and just went up. And eventually you don't see people anymore. Then you don't see anyone for a week. And there, I remember, at some point, I don't remember where I was, somewhere far up north, I got into a snowstorm. It was a bit later in the year. It started snowing. I was in my tent. I knew, now it's getting tight. I have to get out somehow. At night I trekked over a mountain with a headlamp down into some village. It took quite a while, eight hours. Then I sat in this bus stop. That's when I noticed for the first time, this is awesome. Eventually a bus came by. And I was totally happy when I saw this bus and especially this bus driver. I must have looked miserable, because if you've been at it for a month, well, you don't buy anything, you collect what you find, catch a few fish, drink the water there, a few berries, the usual. What you do then. Today you probably make a lot of money with that. Back then it was just, I'll just do it. I think today you could do something like this with this slimy men's-health-and-I'm-now-mid-40s-and-need-to-get-my-life-together thing. Now you have to talk really seriously about my problems and my wife doesn't listen to me. I'm such an underprivileged person. Ha ha ha. Anyway. And I did that, and then I got into this bus and saw these people, was incredibly happy, thought about why I was so insanely happy, and at some point I realized, I haven't seen a single person in two weeks. Crazy. That was really crazy. And then I went into a gas station at some point and bought a Pepsi and drank that Pepsi. It was the best. The best thing I've ever drunk. I was really high on Pepsi. And it was just a Pepsi Max, but it had more caffeine, I figured out. Yeah, that's how it is. But we actually wanted to talk about other things.

Björn: Yeah, but I still think it's a perfect intro. Super segue. Okay, but since we're on the topic of traveling a lot, someone who also travels a lot and feels like he can't stand being home for a week is Hans. Hans Becking. He had a difficult spring, I'd say. He rode the Four Islands together with Wout Alemán. Not as hard a stage race as the Cape, but still four or five days. Technically definitely not easy, especially considering — extremely rocky. The whole thing is in Croatia, so you basically only ride rocks. And they won five out of five stages, right?

Niclas: Yeah, five out of five. Yeah, about time. No, it was super. The field was okay. And it's a real VO2max race. Short stages, super punchy, very technical because very rocky, like you said. And we had a shitty spring. And a shitty Cape Epic prep, was constantly sick, and then we skipped the Epic and Four Islands was the first goal, so we trained toward that. Tests started getting reasonable again, and then I did a pretty good job, I'd say. It worked out.

Björn: Apparently. Can you, especially when you say it's a pure VO2max race, did you train a lot of VO2max beforehand?

Niclas: 40-20s until you drop. The usual. 40-20s, two minutes and so on. And then there's always the question, VO2max — how do you train it? It's just, I always say, everything works. Do what you haven't done.

Björn: But that's probably difficult with a rider like Hans, right? In his career he's basically trained everything through, hasn't he?

Niclas: Sure, but the body is a creature of habit, like everyone else. Or like everything. If you haven't done VO2max intervals for six weeks and then you ride VO2max intervals again, they hit pretty hard. You also have to — You always have to find a stimulus that's interesting, that fits, and that builds on what you've done before. Everyone talks about polarized training. On the other hand, there are also Double Threshold Days, which is contrary to that, which is funny. And if you look at Michael Joyner, sport scientist, who says cardiac output is everything, then you say, okay, where do I get max cardiac output? Then you can do something like, hammer at threshold for a really long time, like 30 minutes pounding at threshold. Those are hellish workouts, but they show brutal results. So doing what you haven't done usually works pretty well.

Björn: Okay, well, glad you say 30 minutes hammering at threshold is a brutal workout, and when I look at my training plan on Saturday, that's exactly what's there. Thank you.

Niclas: You're welcome. Yeah, I wouldn't even say it's 30 minutes at threshold, but rather a 30-minute time trial.

Björn: Yeah, because the value is actually just over threshold.

Niclas: No, we've talked about this — I just love this study, the Hickson study. I find it so totally straightforward, it's like a sledgehammer, and you see it and just think, nonsense. Yeah. But you do it and find out, wow, it really works. And what I find so great about it is actually this. When you move at threshold and a bit above, you recover relatively well, because it's just refueling. It's literally about eating again. Whereas if you're hammering around at VO2max and above — or really all out, you nail your central nervous system for a while, and these regeneration phases stretch out like chewing gum. It can take really long. Then you do a few 40-20s and a few all-outs and then you train 16 hours and you're permanently fried. You have to be careful. That's also why bicarbonate is sometimes used in such training sessions. Or beta-alanine or similar, just so you don't grill yourself. And I think with these threshold sessions you can ride a relatively high stimulus, cardiac output, stroke volume. And it still raises your VO2max — that study also shows it, it's the only study that showed a linear increase in VO2max. It would be exciting now to say, let's verify that in another study, it's such a hellish protocol, whether it's really like that, or if it was just a lucky shot. But with many athletes I do this with, like Tim Smäge, I mean, how crazy did he ride. Nobody could follow him. Wout Alemán and Hans bent their legs. Wismar bent his legs. And Tim Smäge time-trialed off the front for 30 minutes and nobody saw him again. Then you can of course combine it with altitude training if you want. You build up plasma again, and... yeah, exactly.

Björn: What I'd add directly, several points, because I just talked about this Hickson training again with a mutual friend of ours, with Holger. Oh, he wrote me about it, I wrote that I was on vacation. Then he sent me the message.

Niclas: The 8000-character message. Holger, sorry.

Björn: I did at least call him about it, because when I get such huge WhatsApp messages, I really struggle to read them. As a coach, you do get big WhatsApp messages. I'm always glad when people send me a voice message. I find that much more pleasant. But that one was really long. Anyway, what you have to say about this Hickson stuff. I think the difficult thing about Hickson is, you really have to be motivated. You have to really hammer yourself at least four times a week. But you can't overdo it, like you said. Because if you push this stimulus too far, if you don't actually ride around your threshold but rather go into VO2max territory, then you can wreck yourself so badly that it doesn't work anymore. So you really need an athlete who understands, okay, when there's 5x7 or 7x5 or 10x5 and I'm supposed to ride at threshold, then please ride at threshold and don't overdo it and don't kill yourself by doing the first three super hard and dying on the last seven. And really treating these as time trials, trying to make a constant high power across the whole time trial and not, like, going hard for five minutes and dying for the last 25. The whole thing has to happen with some sense and reason. And the other thing I wanted to say also applies, I think, to 40-20s or 30-15s and to VO2max training in general. With VO2max training what you always try to do is reach as much time over 90% of VO2max as possible, at least to raise VO2max. But you don't have to ride all-out for that, because, like you said, with all-out you wreck yourself. The recovery is brutal. I had to experience it firsthand last week, where I thought, Wednesday, super good legs, was super fun. On the last interval I rode much harder than you had written. And the rest of the week wasn't a complete catastrophe, but for example I couldn't do the test on Saturday because I was just dead. And that's something you always have to teach the athletes — keep the intensities partly steady. If you're feeling good, you can ride a bit harder, but never all-out and don't completely kill yourself. Save those bullets for a race or a test, when you really need it.

Niclas: Yeah, I think you see that with our Activity AI. So if you have your Garmin or Wahoo synced with Faster U on our website, and then look at the lactate buildup or the W' which ultimately shows how much anaerobic capacity you have, like how deep you can really go. And you actually see, you max yourself out completely or even overshoot the system, because you're sprinting through it standing up. Then you always know you've done too much. Actually, not that much should happen. Okay, with 40-20s it can drop quite a bit. Then you also know you've done enough. But not having long enough recovery shows up nicely in the system. Yeah, definitely, and the food after is super important, and the food during the training. If you don't manage that, then — I mean, the classic, arriving half-dead, undersupplied, then not eating properly for 90 minutes, then you can say the next training day, you don't even need to train. Honestly. If you don't eat right after a hard training and didn't fuel well during it, you can take a rest day the next day. The next training will be shit. Done. Simple. Carbs are doping, basically. If we're being honest, it's awesome. It's the most potent thing there is. Try riding an intense race without carbs. You easily lose 20% power. Or rather, you don't even get into the intense zones. So carbs, the best thing there is. Better than EPO and steroids you've never seen. Get them in, really. It's super. Just works.

Björn: Yeah, that's something. Glad you said it again. We've said it in the last or second-to-last episode too. It's something where I really feel like I've talked to so many athletes about this in the last few weeks, where I say, yeah, did you take the 80 grams that's written on your plan?

Niclas: Yeah.

Björn: Ah, no, I only managed 60. Yeah, well. That makes a difference, because if you look at a 4-hour session, that's 80 grams less in the system. And then they come home and say, yeah, but they have to make weight, and then they eat too little at home or only stuff vegetables in afterwards, and then it doesn't progress and they've felt like they've stagnated for a year — well, no wonder. Sure, you don't have to come home and only eat Haribo, but — look — and this works super well with the Activity AI — how many carbs did you burn, eat at least that back, plus your basal metabolic rate, and then you can save unhealthy fats here and there, eat less sugar in the evening, that kind of stuff, to maintain or lose weight. But the carbs just have to go in.

Niclas: Yeah, exactly. And then, when's best to take them in? During training or right after? Done. And what you then — in the evening, you can eat your steamed broccoli if you want. If you steamed everything before. Seriously? Yeah. Well, it's gotten a bit better. Back then this thin or cosmetic aspect — basically, whoever does cycling, it's the worst sport you can do to build a cosmetically reasonable body. Absolutely. You're just rake-thin, you have little muscle except in your legs. And those are usually thinner too. That's also a bit of genetics. But you have to do compensatory sports, otherwise you just look so hunched, just pressed down by life. So cycling is definitely not the right approach to do sport cosmetically. By the way, triathlon is better for that. Just the swimming. Just the swimming. Many, many years ago I read a study about why people do triathlon. And the main reason was aesthetics. Totally wild. They want to look decent. And you've worked everything. I'd say nowadays, go rowing instead. That's faster to handle. And it's cost-neutral or cheaper. I mean, triathlon is kind of a... it would be mean if I said it's a show. But when you see the bikes in the transition zone, you think... yeah, other people have V8 engines and fat exhausts, and here you have awesome bikes.

Björn: Absolutely. But actually I'd even say, cycling and swimming, those two I'd combine, because if you look at how many injuries marathon running brings, that has little to do with cosmetics. But we want to get to our actual topic, after 20 minutes. And I wanted to use the Four Islands as a lead-in and ask Björn a bit about: what does the perfect mountain bike marathon rider look like physiologically? What do we have to train for? What does nutrition look like? We've already talked about that a bit. Or what does race tactics look like? How do I pace myself? And then technique, what equipment do I need?

Niclas: Yeah, so the perfect mountain bike marathon rider is Andi Seewald. If that wasn't easy.

Björn: No, but I'd maybe — Andi Seewald is a very, very good mountain bike marathon rider.

Niclas: He's incredibly adaptable, and that's the advantage. He can do anything. And you experience this in his bandwidth. You can send Andi Seewald to a pancake-flat race and he'll ride at the front. And you can send Andi Seewald into the high mountains and you know exactly, he'll ride right at the front. And that's the flexibility, the adaptability of an athlete, and especially the mental adaptability. And that's actually the fascinating part. You go to some race that's pancake flat. I mean, the World Champs last year, or Worlds in Denmark or wherever. Courses that don't actually fit. And he builds a mindset and says, okay, I still want to perform. He doesn't say from the start, can't get up there or it's too flat for me, whatever. He just says, I want to ride there. And I want to do everything to ride fast there. And then it gets done. So he's right there — the attitude toward training fits. Even if the training is shit, do it. Who wants to ride threshold under 70 kg on the flat? It's zero fun. You're not fast and then you have to think, how do you do it? How can you still tweak your aerodynamics? I mean, he's also one of the few athletes who really say, I really think about how to make myself maximally small. In the wind. And exactly, the perfect marathon rider doesn't exist, because all courses are different. I think there's hardly a sport other than road cycling. And totally revolutionized by Pogačar, of course, who shows that there are also athletes who are good on all terrains. That hasn't existed for many years. That last existed maybe with Eddy Merckx, or maybe Bernard Hinault, that area. Then there was nothing for a long time. There were only the specialists. Paris-Roubaix — when did a Grand Tour rider last ride that? I mean, Wiggins did it once, 2014 or so.

Björn: Yeah, but with Wiggins you almost have to say that physique-wise he was already a bit outside the classic Grand Tour rider of his time.

Niclas: Yeah, true. At the time definitely. He had thinned himself out totally. He was under 70 kilos, but for a track rider his physique was naturally stronger. And I don't even know who won Paris-Roubaix that year. Was that the guy from Greenedge, who rode super smart?

Björn: Roger Hammond? I don't remember. Roger Hammond?

Niclas: Whatever. Anyway. Wiggins basically had a target on his back, everyone followed him whenever he attacked. And he wasn't taken to the Tour that year, I think. He rode the Tour of California instead. And that's the exciting part. He was way over 70, like 78, 79, and at the Tour of California, which he dominated, he was at just under 70. And then he became time trial world champion that year. They didn't take him to the Tour. That year Nibali won, because Froome broke his foot on some cobblestone stage. I'm pretty sure it was his foot. I was actually invited then. I was first at the Transalp, then I went to TANS Alp at the end, got on the plane and flew over to the Tour de France, and then for a team that had invited me — we were at the podium ceremony with Nibali and so on, then we went out to a fancy dinner and stuff like that. Yeah, it was nice, and Sky looked a bit foolish. It was pretty controversial because they hadn't taken Wiggins that year. Yeah.

Björn: But, to come back to it. Physiology, mountain bike marathon rider.

Niclas: Yeah, super oxygen uptake, lactate clearance rate, flexible enough to adapt them for the various races. Simple.

Björn: Okay, but that means actually, like with almost every cycling discipline, I'd say, the higher your VO2max, the better.

Niclas: Yeah, the better the four-to-five-minute power, the better. Simple. And the rest you just have to — economy you have to adapt. Glycolytic rate, VLamax you have to adapt. So how efficiently this engine runs. And then aerodynamics, possibly depending on the course profile. And then you have it. And then tactics, of course, and then training for the course conditions. Super simple approach. Yeah, I think it's totally important and it's still being done. We have — How I understand training and how I always convey it, and how I always run into consensus with everyone I work with, especially coaches — take Javier Sola for example. They totally dominated Tour de France last year. They do this. They look at every stage to the point of throwing up. And they train for those stages. And I mean, Tim Kerrison did this back at Sky. Train for the targeted power. What did Kerrison do back at Sky? He sat in the car the first year. He had no clue about cycling. But he watched, how long do they ride up there? Okay, with what power do they ride up there. He looked at the power meter data, that's why they became so power-meter-fixated, and then determined: this attacking is total nonsense, because every year I'm jumping the glycolytic power and possibly running my fat metabolism completely empty, or shutting it off, so to speak. And that's why there were these boring Sky numbers, where they just said, we ride into the mountain seven of us and just ride six-plus watts the whole time. And then nobody gets the idea — like, let Nibali attack. We just keep our pace. Easy. And that's how they dominated for years. And that's how it was ridden back then. And nowadays it's ridden a bit differently, when you have a mutant like Tadej and unlimited money to buy the best riders in the world. I mean really, that's totally crazy.

Björn: I think you actually saw it nicely at Flèche Wallonne. They actually did the old Sky tactic a bit. The last six, seven kilometers — well, before that, Jan Christensen even started riding earlier. Aha, it was just Brandon McNulty and Jan Christensen riding full gas from the front, and the pace was so high that behind them, the captains of various teams — Alaphilippe, Hirschi or whoever — all blew up, dropped out, and there were really only like eight riders sometimes. On the last climb, again Jan Christensen from the front, and then Pogačar just attacked once.

Niclas: That's of course a total luxury situation. They have such incredibly awesome riders, they have so incredibly much cash. And you just buy yourself the crème de la crème and everyone is happy with it. Back then, with Jules Postel, it was always only chiefs and no other riders, only chefs, so to speak. Can that work? I think they're just so well-fed with money that they say, okay, we're doing our job here. And Pogačar is just so much better than the others, that you accept this dominant role of this athlete, even though they don't show it off. They say clearly, that's the best rider, we don't have to play around or do anything ourselves, when he's there we don't have to — make any moves to try to win. And then you just hammer there at the front with the best riders in the world. Done. Simple. Or what does simple mean? You have to manage that first. And yeah, exactly. That would be the tactic. Or, I have to come back to it again. So how do you train? I had said, ah, Niclas is happy again. The only one who can follow me right now is Niclas. Everyone else is gone. No, how I understand sport is, you build your body. It's like sculpting. You have a big tree trunk in front of you and you're cutting at it with the chainsaw, want to make a face out of it. If you're already pretty good, say 90% finished — that's your base. Then you say, okay, that's my body, now I'm making something out of it. And then you start with the fine work, and the fine work is always tuning toward the race. That means usually the VO2max work is done. And then you start tuning your glycolytic power, the VLamax, in that direction. Or rather I'd even say, you start — and that goes hand in hand — you start training for that specific power. That's a 10-minute effort. How many watts do I have to ride for 10 minutes? How is that mountain ridden into? Maybe the first two minutes are ridden super fast. Maybe a team strings it out so I have to ride 15 minutes super fast. Classic. That's why you do something like motor training. You ride along at 60 in the landscape and then hammer up a mountain like crazy, just to know that speed, like how we rode up to the mountain. Broken down for a normal athlete, that means I do my — possibly polarized approach, lots of base, VO2max, base, VO2max, base, VO2max, then a bit of 30-30, 40-20, 1-minute intervals, also slightly over-threshold stuff. And then I start looking at, okay, how long is this race? How long are the climbs? Or is it just a time trial? And then you start breaking it down piece by piece. You don't immediately ride 30 minutes at target power, but you say, I'll ride 6x5 minutes or 4x8 or 5x8 or 4x7. And you slowly work your way in. And then you can think about, how does a race actually unfold? Maybe I even ride a negative split, where I say, okay, I'll ride the first 10 minutes at 400 watts and the second 10 minutes at 430 watts. And you tune your body, and that's not just physical, that's also mentally really, really important. You roll into something like that and know, okay, I can do this anyway. And I think that's another decisive point — knowing, this performance level I can just call up because I've already trained it. That's how simple training is.

Björn: Yeah, here I have to intervene a bit, because these 10%, when I look at my athletes now, only apply to a few. Because the biggest potential, like you said, is in the 90% before that. If I haven't maxed out these 90% yet — like, if I haven't even ridden 3 hours, 4 hours, 5 hours easy base on the weekend, and done that for 4 weeks in a row, then I shouldn't even start — you just give away a lot of potential, when you start with, okay, what's my target power later? Most hobby athletes can do that maybe in the three weeks before. You can look at, okay, which race is my A goal, and then do that. Before that I'd always say, ride your base cleanly, eat properly, do your VO2max sessions one or two times a week. For the vast majority that's the most sensible thing, and especially over winter, work on that weakness. Over winter really ride big base blocks, as much as you can fit into your training plan. Short, hard blocks with VO2max to build that up, because for 90% of athletes, especially in the hobby and amateur range, that's the biggest lever. I should add, the older you get, the smaller this lever becomes, because the adaptation gets less, but even there you can get a lot out with good VO2max training.

Niclas: Yeah, definitely. Do what you haven't done before.

Björn: Yeah.

Niclas: Usually works pretty well. Absolutely.

Björn: What I find interesting now with training, how do you train — because you said you build the trainings according to the profile that's needed in the race. How much fatigue resistance do you bring in?

Niclas: That's such a shit word, isn't it? I find nobody can really do anything with it. We throw fatigue resistance around. I think it was Knowledge is what. I quite like that. But then he showed Giro winners of the last five years. 20-minute power, 20-minute power after kilojoule throughput XY, so after a certain time. And then VO2max, but VO2max not as a power value, but only as a pure number. So you didn't actually know things like gross efficiency for example. It can be anything, right? Would have been nice to calculate the glycolytic power, then it would have gotten interesting.

Björn: And actually you have to add, how were the 2000 kilojoules, 3000 kilojoules accumulated? Did I ride base? Did I ride tempo?

Niclas: We took that from the Giro data. So it works. Anyway, at least I do bring fatigue resistance into it. I find this term hard to grasp. And I do this in the sense of changing torque in the individual trainings. And especially that the learning, in your head and — muscularly, breaking down accumulated lactate at higher cadences. That really has to be learned. Or also working with very high torque, base, big gear, whatever. That's how I bring it in. It's nasty for the muscle, partly. But it doesn't kill you mentally. And this — sure, you push intervals to the back, also classic. It's the — I have something like over-unders, where you ride four times twelve minutes or four times 15 minutes, and you ride the first two in the first two hours and the last two in hour four and five. That's of course super hard training. And in between you only ride Fatmax, which is also super hard. And definitely, that's also race-specific, that works too. Fundamentally, I always notice — what you train is like a switch. If you say you only train three hours and then do a 5-hour race, then it's the classic, you ride 3 hours well and the last two are shit. So you also have to get used to the distances, maybe also do over-distance. The Japanese marathon runners liked to do that too. So also ride the distance you have to do. And maybe push intensities to the end too, but in a way that doesn't completely fry you. That's how it is. So you can do that. But just basically speaking, how do I structure such a training? Say I have twelve weeks. Then you start, where do I stand? Some testing.

Björn: Optimally a power test.

Niclas: Yeah, sure. I mean, it's super simple. It's the easiest way. And then you have the Activity AI on top, done. So you know what you can do, what you can't. You see VO2max 55 or whatever, 50. Not so awesome. For a man that wouldn't be so good. Or 45. You know, okay, I have to do something here. How do I best build them up? What's most sustainable for base? How much time do I have? And the system also tells you how much time you have. How many kilojoules of throughput can you handle? If you tell me, I have 15 hours a week of base. Then just ride that. Ride 15 hours for three weeks. That's 45 hours. That's already really something. And then it usually goes better on its own. And then I would — Then there's always the question, do I push in a VO2max block, if I'm not so good? So if I already — Usually they say polarized training is super, but I'd put a slight stop sign there sometimes, because someone who isn't really fit and you grill right away with crazy VO2max intervals — they're usually not fit enough. There I'd do a slight progression and just ride sweet spot. Adaptation happens anyway, and a brutal adaptation, because someone who isn't fit will also benefit from this training. And there you can just say, okay, now I'll ride sweet spot and threshold for two weeks. So, and then I take a break again, and then I do another test, see what happened, and then you can ride base again, and then maybe you really ride a VO2max block with 40-20s, and then I'd briefly look at what's required at the race. So how much power do I need? Or how long are the segments? Eight minutes, ten minutes, 15 minutes. Then you train for that a bit. That's a bit of threshold. A bit over threshold. That's how I'd do it. And someone who's fit, you'd do a bit differently. You only have base first. Then you slam in the VO2max blocks. Then you look at, how is the lactate buildup. Say you have a 0.6 lactate buildup and you have a 60 oxygen uptake. Then you wouldn't start pushing it down. I wouldn't do that. But just deal with it and ride a lot of shuttling, over-unders, one minute over, two minutes under, torques, gimmicks, Fatmax with a big gear, Fatmax with a small gear, after hard intervals to clear lactate or break it down badly and then break it down strongly in the next interval. That's what I'd do when people have higher lactate production rates. It's not like Pogačar rides around at 0.2 lactate production rate, he's much higher there, which he can afford because he has high oxygen uptake. So you always have to see these two values in relation. So, now I've talked a lot again. But that was super.

Björn: No, I think it's really good. Now, on top of that, physiology we've got, training we've got, nutrition. Basically I think nutrition and hydration, like we said, always start with carbs. Fuel during training, fuel right after, drink enough. What would be standard for base? Standardly 45 to 60 grams of carbs.

Niclas: Depends on how big the engine is. Yeah, but 45, 60 grams per hour. You can stagger that. You also have a glycogen store in the muscle. You don't have to start right away with 60 grams if you only ride one hour. Maybe nothing is enough. But please eat afterwards. Exactly, that for sure, then you can do a bit of carb cycling, I always like that. Or rather, the choice during training, after training, right after training, slam in stuff that makes sense to refill the stores. And then after, you can slowly taper off the sugar feeding. Especially if you're not training so much, then you eat reasonably. With intense training, like VO2max or especially threshold, the carb portion has to be much higher. The body lets you know on its own. You're constantly hungry. And there you eat the sugar stuff right after training, and during training I'd switch to more complex carbs. Potatoes, wild rice, whole-grain spaghetti, whatever. Yeah, that kind of thing.

Björn: All right. How do you see it with — pardon?

Niclas: Proteins of course too, like two grams per kilo of body weight.

Björn: How do you see it then, say, the last four weeks before the race, also testing during high-intensity trainings, how many grams of carbs go in, because the more you can manage per hour in the race, the better?

Niclas: Yeah, definitely. So this gut training, definitely. From 90 to 100, 110, 120, 130 grams. 145. Or you can test that. If you have the engine for it, you do it. Exactly, definitely test that with the more intense stuff. And then, I'd want to do another really long ride on the weekend before the race. 5, 6 hours. And if possible — we've talked about this often — say Sunday is the race, I'd ride longer again on Thursday, like three hours, maybe even three hours of Fatmax, empty the stores again and then refill well, magnesium in the evening. And then it works. And classic tapering, yeah, in the race week I wouldn't pour myself a drink anymore. The week before I'd still work intensively, but not super intensively anymore. The week before that I'd really pour myself a big one. So it's a wave. Say you have four weeks, in week four before the race, say 80% hard. The week before that you go to 90 to 100. And then you really taper down to 70. And then in the tapering week you don't do that much. One long ride. I find that's the much more decisive session. And then it works. So the tapering week is actually a rest week, so to speak.

Björn: Okay, okay. Then tactics, fueling, race tactics, pacing. How would you, for example — first it's important for most: okay, how do I fuel? Say, classic four hours, for a hobby/amateur rider then five to six hours of mountain bike marathon, like 100 kilometers, 2,500 meters of climbing. How would you approach fueling, assuming we don't have a soigneur?

Niclas: Hydration pack. And then there's always the question, do I hammer along with the front, or do I say I'll just ride my pace? You can run the risk of missing the group up front that has nice draft. On the other hand, if right at the start there's a 20-minute climb, I'd say, ride your pace up. Done. And everyone else will burn themselves out. And totally cook themselves. And the perspective is, do I want to win or just get through? Or do I want to ride a good result? Riding a good result, without going for podium, I'd always say, ride your pace. Just pace yourself through. Roll yourself out. Unless you have the chance to get into a group. Then if it's a five-minute climb, you ride everything you have and try to get into a group. If after that there's 40 km pancake-flat, you blast over it and hang in the draft for 40 km and let them pull you. And after that you sort it out. But if there are really four, like always 10, 15, 20-minute climbs in a row, ride your pace from the start.

Björn: And then optimally, just before or in the weeks before, I always think it's good to do a power test, because then you have better numbers. Then you know — especially with our power test, you can see really nicely, okay, what power can I hold roughly on average for four hours. And then you can derive your pacing a bit from that. And then I'd say, optimally you've trained it beforehand and know how many carbs per hour I can take in, can I tolerate 100, can I tolerate 120 — generally, the more, the better. Always has a certain limit, depending on what you tolerate. Then look that you optimally have the carbs already on board, maybe work with a hydration pack, drink that empty first so that afterwards — or drink the bottles empty first, depending on how the feed zones are. When can I refill how? Do I drink the bottles empty first, refill them, can I ride through, do I drink the hydration pack empty first. And how warm it is. An example.

Niclas: Actually I should — yeah, we definitely have to do this. I've talked to Sebastian about it. Last year I programmed myself a little app on my phone for the composition of drinks based on heat and humidity and sodium and so on. So you type in how warm it is and how many grams of carbs I can max take in. And humidity and so on. Which is pretty cool because you always have it quickly in hand, and it's of course always impressive when I quickly pull it out of my phone. We'll put this on our platform, this calculator. Then anyone can mix their drinks themselves. Yeah, let's do it. I'll send Sebastian the code and we can build it in.

Björn: Yeah, why? I just met Sebastian last week. There are still a few things in the pipeline.

Niclas: The cool thing is, I'm thinking about quitting at 50, but we have like 15 years of work. We have so many ideas we want to implement. I mean, we can do such awesome stuff the whole time, and you have a few ideas. We don't lack for that. And you were last week — I wasn't, I was on vacation. Sebastian was also on vacation, only he's heading the wrong direction for vacation. You were on the track with Wismar and tested a bit and took nice photos. I'm not in them, sad about that. And exactly, there's more to come as a newsletter when we get a chance.

Björn: Yeah, it was definitely awesome to see how Wismar works with the Faster U software, and basically how the guys work, it's really super professional, I have to say, crazy well-organized.

Niclas: It's also somehow the right guy, with Jamie Lohan, that's just awesome.

Björn: So watching Jamie work — he doesn't talk much when he's working, but you always see the changes he makes to riders, and they just work directly. There were very few runs where he really said, yeah okay, that didn't help, but those exist too. It was awesome to see what possibilities they have, and they have, of course — what they brought as material, like everything you want in spacers, in saddles, any changes you want, they had right there to test. Actually only seat positions were changed, the rest they didn't do, I think. But also a bit, I could talk to Jamie about training and race pacing, and he does a lot there too — he plans pacing for time trials, and I was a bit, ah okay, I'd know things, for example, that I could or would want to do better, and that was crazy again — that even at this highest level there's still potential. But what I saw, is that they're sometimes still missing manpower. Just three more crazy aerodynamicists at Jamie Mayer's level would just make the team another percent better.

Niclas: And it's crazy. It's totally wild and I notice it myself. So Sebastian and I have the advantage of doing nothing but aerodynamics and metabolism simulation. And of course I still train a lot of people, but I'm always learning so much, and I always notice — I just had a longer conversation recently with Paul Heldran and Javier, talked a lot about what else you can do platform-wise and how they train, or rather what evaluation tools they sometimes use. And they use stuff where I'd say, it's totally outdated, but it works super, because they then use these tools in an intelligent and smart way. And then again, where I notice, I have real limits there and notice that they've gone so deep into some things that I can't keep up. And it's similar — I wouldn't claim — well, aerodynamics I have a clue, sure, I want to deal with it a lot, but there are of course many aerodynamicists who are better. And I also train cross-country riders. And Ulan Galinski just rode bombingly strong in Brazil. I mean, a 57-kilo rider riding twelfth twice on that course is really awesome. But I wouldn't say I'm the most awesome cross-country coach or the most awesome triathlon coach or whatever in general. So you always learn a lot, and you have to be open to say, okay — Can I, from the domain — or do I have access into this domain via a coach or athlete? From Enrico Avicini I learned an incredible amount and got ideas. An incredibly creative athlete, I find really exciting. What can you do differently and adapt, and then use the flexibility? To also apply that and build it into training. And I think the athletes who work with me, they know that the training does change permanently somehow. And sure there's a crazy long and boring base phase, but I always try to find something new, or rather sometimes I'm so excited about things I've seen and heard that I have to try them out. And then I have my guinea pigs, my lab rats, that's where I do it. And then I see, yeah, it works. And then I transfer it to others. When I see it makes metabolic sense.

Björn: And when you know, okay, the athlete is up for it and can stick with it.

Niclas: It's not just that I always say, yeah, we'll throw wood on the fire. But it does happen. I'd say I'm one of the coaches who actually doesn't have people train that hard, right?

Björn: Yeah, so what I would basically — that's true, the easy base phases, the targeted base phases, are more than they used to be with me, for example. But when the hammer comes out, you have to be ready to really hurt yourself. Yeah, so that was for example — and I think that's actually the thing that makes training, or training in general, so effective: understanding long, easy phases and just dumbly riding only base for a month with maybe a bit of Fatmax on the climb here and there, the body needs that, just makes sense. You can't pull out the killer intervals in December if you want to ride fast in May, June, July, makes no sense, but training 100 hours of base makes sense. On the other hand, then being ready, when you're four weeks before an A goal, to really hurt yourself. That's what I think makes training so effective. And I think Andi summed it up nicely once, that when he started working with you, he first had to understand that during these easy phases you also can't overdo it, so that you're fresh for the hard phases, and that you ride the hard phases only as hard as it says in the training plan, because otherwise you can't complete the overall picture. If you blow yourself up in the first five sessions of the hard block, you won't manage the next five. But to complete the overall picture, you have to execute these ten sessions.

Niclas: Yeah, training, yeah — I always say, training, a whole block of training, is always like a marathon. You can stash a training session or two and think, yeah, that was awesome training. But there are ten more coming. And if you don't pull those off — actually I want you to not necessarily get better from training to training, but to be able to pull them off. And the nicest is when the last training session is very hard, and you just nail it and say, okay, now I'm ready. That has a super effect psychologically. And physically we've definitely been on the right track too, that we then had this adaptation. Of course we want to build stress, but it has to be in a degree that's bearable. And the most important, or one of the important points is, that the athlete understands. Don't do more, don't necessarily do more. There are players who always do too much, and you say it once, twice, three times, and the fifth time you just nod and say, okay, walk into the knife.

Björn: With those I actually start building the training so that I know, he's going to overdo it here, he's going to overdo it there.

Niclas: You can do that, but on the other hand I've had people who always have to train 18, 20 hours, and always hard, hard, hard. Or rather, not just hard but super disgusting-hard. And then you see, oh man, then the performance can't be delivered. Then you build in a hammer interval or a hard interval, and then you get a message saying it's impossible, blah blah blah. And then you say, yeah of course it's impossible, because beforehand they trained slightly into the dumps and also reduced their carb intake to licorice, that you wear yourself down to the enamel — then nothing comes of it. So that's also tough. Anyway. So mentally it has to fit. That reminds me, I have to build a training plan in a moment. I got a small change pushed in this morning.

Björn: Exactly. Yeah. Okay, last point, briefly on tire choice, seat position, clothing. How important do you see, just in mountain bike marathon, aerodynamic points? So sure, seat position.

Niclas: If it's flat, definitely. Aerodynamics important, clothes important, wind vests kill aerodynamics brutally. Oh, I just saw — brand new, there's something from Velotos, they leaked it, it must be true. I had — actually no, I didn't. But interestingly, I had contact with the boss of Velotos in January. They sponsor a team somewhere in Thailand, I think. And there's a rider there I know very well, a good friend of mine, who I also coach, Adne van Engelen. Who also rides really fast. And they have a bit of aerodynamics and so on. And now they made a hydration vest that's also supposed to cool. And I thought, ha, my idea. They didn't pull it out of the hat as fast as we talked about it. So I don't think. Who knows, in a Chinese factory it can go really zacki zacki. They don't waste time, they just get it done. And so, it exists now. Would be funny to test. I already wrote to Adne, and let's see if it's a game-changer. Especially aerodynamically it would be interesting to see how the thing is, and whether it's UCI-conform if you carry it around under the jersey.

Björn: You mean this undershirt of theirs where you can put the bladder in the back? Yeah, that's basically this hype, I'd say, that came up around last year, where Rule28 and Rapha both presented their race suits with that built into the back. This year at the Epic, Johnny Hoogerland from RH77, that's the clothing brand I think, sponsored, also rode such a one-piece. Didn't make him faster. But I wouldn't say it was because of the one-piece. I think other things were the issue. But basically I think it's also really cool, and definitely a point — if you can pull off a one-piece where you can put this bladder in and out well, and you ride past a feed zone and, depending on what you need, grab an ice-cube-filled bladder and put it on your back, that can have a really awesome effect at various races. Just drinking ice cold also makes sense.

Niclas: Yeah, and the bladder would have to be tensioned. So I imagine such a bladder that has an insulating layer on top and direct skin contact below. Maybe even make the surface really big, with some kind of structure. Yeah, that would be exciting.

Björn: Absolutely. And I think, if I remember correctly, Dylan Johnson tested the whole thing in the wind tunnel too, and a hydration pack, at least on a gravel bike or a road bike, tends to even make you aerodynamically faster, when the front area where the hydration pack is closed up to the backpack — when that even falls away and you only have the bladder in the back, it should make you even faster. That's definitely exciting. Look, now I'm totally lost. You don't know Dylan Johnson? Of course not. He's a gravel rider from America, who started mountain biking at 14, I think, rode a lot of mountain bike marathon, was always good, then started riding gravel especially, 2018 with his first Unbound. And he makes YouTube videos about it. So he coaches people himself, makes YouTube videos about it, and makes a lot of YouTube videos about sport science topics, and is known for chasing marginal gains. So he has videos about which chain is the fastest. He's spoken with all kinds of people and a lot with the Silca developer about which chain wax is the fastest, which wheels, which tire. Before Unbound he tested, okay, the 2.1 Continental Race King is the fastest tire for the race, he tested it himself on his routes. But then he went and, when you get the Race King brand new, it has lots of small nubs sticking out. And he said, yeah, that can't be aerodynamic, and went and used a hair clipper to shave all the nubs off a brand-new tire before the race, so those nubs would be gone. And he's kind of one of the founders of this trend, I'd claim, of putting 2.1 mountain bike tires on gravel bikes, because they're faster in terms of rolling resistance and comfort. And he just put out a video where he tested which tire is the fastest. So they went into the wind tunnel, looked at I think 35-mil tires up to a 55-mil mountain bike tire. And took these aerodynamic values and compared them with rolling resistance values, and even did — he said the test wasn't 100% perfect, but they tested how rolling resistance also works on uneven surfaces. And saw, okay, that probably a 45-mil mountain bike tire just due to rolling resistance is just superior to a 40-mil gravel tire from an aero standpoint, especially in real gravel races. And I think that's also a reason why, particularly in mountain biking, the 2.4 tires are slowly gaining the upper hand, because at 1.1, 1.2 bar pressure they're just the fastest. Just on an Epic course, almost everyone rode 2.4 tires. And what I find awesome, going a bit more into material — that with a 2.4 mountain bike tire on a 30-mil rim, you don't even need to ride these crazy profiled tires anymore, like a Racing Ray for example, because the width and tire pressure already build up so much grip, that as long as it's not super wet, you can ride for example a Rig XC, which — from the profile has relatively little, but you do really well with it and are damn fast. So it's so wild what I've done with tires in recent years.

Niclas: So, surface — the more surface, the better. Punctual, that's like the elephant on stiletto heels. So the profile presses into the ground, and you use that when you have little surface and when it's not so — Or Vanessa. And when you have a lot of surface and only a bit of profile on it, you always have an advantage. Sure. Yeah. Dreamy. Yeah, now we don't even have to talk about it. I mean, I rode 18-millimeter road tires at 12 bar.

Björn: Brutal.

Niclas: Which is totally stupid. And when the 25s came out, that was already the mega thing, that was the sedan. I mean, nowadays we ride with 30, 28, and even wider. I think he rode 32. Makes sense too. Anything else is stupid. Exciting. Especially aerodynamically it's always different, which rim, how wide, and especially how is the frame, how is the fork, where does the wind come from. Even there you always have to look. Just throwing it in the wind tunnel is nice at first, but if you have frame XY or rider XY, the trailing edge at the tire can also be totally different. And you really have to test individually. There I'd just do a Zero test.

Björn: I found that with Sebastian on the track at Wismar super interesting, that you really can't just say, okay, we'll grab bike XY, build the position on it, it looks fast and it'll fit. No, you really have to test it individually, because it always depends on the rider's body, and just because the position looks fast on Ganna, and I copy it and ride that way, for you it might be that this position isn't the fastest, just because your body is built differently. You have a different trailing edge with your body and then you need a completely different position.

Niclas: That's why material tests in the wind tunnel are also always tough. You put a helmet in the wind tunnel, on some dummy in position XY, the helmet is maybe 5 watts. I mean, 5 watts, you can't measure that out. Or 3 watts, you can't get that out at all. That's noise. Can be fast on the dummy, but can be total shit on bike XY. And with the wheels, you can test that okay, you can see what's fast. But how is the interaction with the bike and the rider? And there it can be different again. And what's it at which speed? Are we talking about 40, like triathlon speed, or are we talking 50-plus, road speed, or 60, 70-plus, sprint speeds. You also have to consider all that, and that's of course super complex. So I always say, grab your material, slam our aero test on it and ride as many gains as you can pull out for so little money. You ride yourself and just test it through. But I find it always exciting. People — make crazy lots of thoughts about training, analytics, look at some graphs and try to interpret stuff into them voodoo-style. And honestly, so much half-knowledge as exists — I'd claim that I'm okay training-wise and physiologically, but far away from what others can do. And then when there are people who have much less of a clue and are then rock-solidly convinced that this training and that works this way, then I think, no way. I'd never lean that far out the window. Exciting on the other hand is, aerodynamics is just totally solid. It's so solid, you can just go, test, and just have numbers and know, that's faster, you also feel it. With training, training is always a black box, or often a black box. You don't even know what's happening. Do I do training XY and then I'll be better in four weeks. Or I did this training and that made me faster. Do I do it again? Does it make me faster again? No, not necessarily. Not necessarily. The body happens. Aerodynamics is a totally different topic. Sit down, do test, see, faster. Good, what can I change again? Sit down again, test a few weeks later, and so on. The more often you do it, the faster you become. I know one rider, hobby rider, who pushed himself to a 17 CdA value. That's a wild Worldtour level. And he rides around at 330 watts and rides everyone into the ground. Because everyone says, hey, how crazy, you must have like 400 watt threshold. No, just has a 17 CdA value, while the others are still struggling with 21. Saves an incredible amount of watts. And this hesitation to test aerodynamics, I always find exciting, because it's so simple. You just invest a few days. So you ride one day, and I'm not talking a few days in a row, but once a week. And then you need a speed sensor. That thing costs 20 euros. I mean, that's nothing. But there's already the first hurdle, such a thing with magnets. Yeah, exactly such a one. And — And then they want to test and think they're done in one day. Then they come with crazy aero material, and test your position first, as it is. And then you test through and test again and test again. Yeah, but Björn, a helmet is also easier just bought. Exactly, that's bought. That's just it. Bought, but not tested. So Dan Bickham. There's nobody who has done more tests with us on the platform. It's absurd. I don't know how many hundreds, if not thousands, of test runs he's done. And he is, I mean, the studies — you can look at how many watts he rode in his hour world record. It's a joke afterwards. Riding at 270 or 80 watts. He really fell apart at the end. Of course, totally cooked. But he was still brutally fast. And there you see what you can achieve with aerodynamics. And the people, even the Worldtour riders, the potential is real, I have to honestly say. There are a few teams that really have an eye on it, that they also test material, their bikes, and so on. Yeah. But many, it's still, oh no, do I have to? It's exhausting. It didn't work right away. Then you think, sure, you do every test super, too. So you have to learn that, it's a craft.

Björn: Yeah, I found it super wild at Flèche Wallonne to see that Pogačar, as soon as he knew, okay, it's the finale, now it's about the win, took everything off, only had his race one-piece on. And many, even captains behind him, were riding with rain jacket, with wind vest, where I thought, guys, what are you doing? So that, what — well, why?

Niclas: Aerodynamics, wind vest or jacket, kills you. 40 watts more. Yeah, and I mean, Javier knows what aerodynamics is. We made a funny joke yesterday too. I don't know which rider it was. He had posted some picture of someone, who at Flèche stuffed his rain jacket in front. So I told him, well, that's also aerodynamically definitely advantageous, leaving it in front. Could even be that they tested it. Could do that again, but I think, well. No, they put insane thought into it. So where can I pull out another thing? Or here, when Wismar — they rode out as three, Matteo, Jürgensen, Wout van Aert and Tiesj. And Tiesj, you mean at — Pauls won, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that's also a wild move. We just ride out with three people. They have that. They're so aero-optimized. It's wild. When Campenaerts sits on the road bike, then it's just, like for other people, a time-trial bike. Just done. Aerodynamically. Absolutely.

Björn: So I think, testing aerodynamics, understanding it a bit and knowing, okay, how to grip.

Niclas: It's so awesome, it's so awesome, you can just go so fast, and the position feels shit at first, but train yourself into the position, and then in the race just ride 10, 15 minutes in such a wild aero position and just notice, hey, nobody can follow. And I just keep riding the thing and maybe ride up to the front of the group. That's just absurd.

Björn: I found it so awesome at the time trial stage at the Epic. So before the Epic with the new bike, after we had the episode with Jamie, I started always only gripping inside, because I tested it once, saw, dude, that makes a lot of difference. Only rode inside. And it was at the stage, there are pictures of it, where I'm riding at the front of the group. Okay, I have to say, those were all Masters riders behind me, but maybe also unfair pacing. But I rode at the front, gripped tight, made myself very, very small partly, and they hung on behind, they all died. But if you look, all elbows are sticking out. Nobody made themselves small. And I don't get it. That — It's not even like the race that day was technically demanding. It was easy. I could lay on the bars for five kilometers straight. No problem. It was just straight farm road. Sure, there are some bumps, but we ride full-suspension. You set the suspension to half-position and just iron over. And I find it ultra-awesome to see. Did you see Georg's post with his new BikeAhead bar? Yeah.

Niclas: No, I didn't see it.

Björn: Look at it. We just made a bar.

Niclas: I know, I've already seen the prototype before the app.

Björn: Oh, awesome.

Niclas: I actually want it. I still remember the neon-pink dummy, I think it was. Exactly, definitely.

Björn: Because Tim is at this — what's the bike race, Trento?

Niclas: Yeah, yeah, that one's totally crazy, the bike race.

Björn: He always rides that one too, with such a bar.

Niclas: Yeah, exactly, that's totally crazy. It's so crazy, he rode through at 300 watts and nobody followed, and I think he won by seven minutes.

Björn: Yeah, that was totally crazy. Good. Nice. We'll try to do podcasts more regularly. Vacation has to happen too.

Niclas: I'm back now. Otherwise I have nothing. Otherwise we'd talk about — look, my kids are awake too now. And loud. That's the right time to stop, I'd say.

Björn: Perfect. Then thanks a lot, Björn. And we'll hear each other next week.

Niclas: Next week we'll talk about gravel races and training.

Björn: Or aerodynamics, even more important. But I'll bring some stuff from Dylan Johnson.

Niclas: I'll check him out now. I'm so bad. You know enough already. Yeah.

Björn: We'll talk. Ciao, ciao.