Como se torna campeão europeu?

Björn: Hey, this is Björn. Just a quick note before we start — this episode is an AI-generated English version of our original German Afasteryou podcast. The voices you hear are cloned with AI. Enjoy the show. Welcome to the Afasteryou Podcast, where everything revolves around endurance sports and training. Here, Sebastian Schluricke, Björn Kafka and Niclas Ranker give you valuable tips and insights to help you take your performance to the next level. So, welcome to a new episode of the Afasteryou Podcast. Today not alone, but together with Björn again. Hello Björn.

Niclas: Morning, morning. So, we're talking about carbs. The most insane doping there is. Nothing boosts performance like carbs. We're also talking about the Cape Epic. We're both maximally unprepared, which I find quite pleasant. Because I'm not the only bad guy this time, you are too. And we looked at a few things, or I looked at a few things. I sent the stuff to Niclas, but you took a look at it too, right?

Björn: Yeah, I took a look at it, exactly. And I had also prepared an episode recently that wasn't strictly about carbs, but where carbs and just normal eating and nutrition would have been a big part of the whole thing. And that's why I think we can have a pretty good conversation about this topic.

Niclas: Yeah, fundamentally it's a great topic.

Björn: It's the topic that you have to push the most onto most athletes. And I think it's the topic where the biggest potential lies for, I'd say, almost 80% of my athletes. Because as long as you don't, just a silly example, I had an athlete who came with us to training camp and he didn't know beforehand how much you can eat. And what a difference it is between a pro athlete who fuels a 30-hour training week with carbs, for example, and a hobby amateur athlete who wants to ride a 30-hour training week and even improve from it. But ultimately maybe doesn't manage to ride it or even get better from it, because he doesn't manage or doesn't have on his radar how much he needs to eat. And I think that's really a point I keep pushing on many of my athletes, and the first thing I always ask is, did you eat enough? And I think many don't get how much they need to eat.

Niclas: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, I'd say let's get started, right?

Björn: Do you want to do carbs first or Cape Epic first?

Niclas: Let's do Epic. Well, no, you want Epic. I don't want Epic at all. I'm frustrated enough already. I just complain on a high level. No, Epic first, then we'll find a great transition. Okay. Look, you rode it. Yeah. So tell us, how was it?

Björn: Awesome. So I think out of the three editions I've been to, this one was definitely one where everything was on the start line and a lot, or at least it felt like a lot, was happening and the race was incredibly exciting. Mhm. I think it's rare for a South African team to ride so actively and, bluntly put, also race for the win. So theoretically something could have happened with the two teams up front, and they wouldn't have been that far behind. A derailleur breaks and suddenly the guys are racing for the win. And that can always happen at the Epic. And I thought Tristan Nortje was incredibly strong here. So awesome to see how he basically wanted to hammer from the front all day. And the conditions were just really brutal. Like seeing one day where the peak, measured by Garmin, was 39, in perception definitely over 40, 42 degrees, also measured at one point in Paarl. So that was already brutally hot, from kilometer 40 to 60 no water point and standing in a 20-kilometer trail climb where 40 degrees is hammering down, that's... brutal.

Niclas: Sounds like a logistical masterpiece.

Björn: Yeah, that was definitely good. And then on the back end, the rain stage, where they even shortened it, riding four hours in crazy rain. In Lawrence Ford with the rocks. That was fun too. So everything was really there. So I had an incredible amount of fun. But honestly I have to say, I wasn't riding at the limit. Yeah.

Niclas: Oh, Niclas is getting a call.

Björn: But also for the first time. Normally, see, I forgot, I always have do-not-disturb on. Then it doesn't happen. Sorry.

Niclas: All good. Yeah, so Epic is always, one part is the cycling, the other part is survival. It has a bit of, Alex Hutchinson just released a new book, The Explorer's Dream. Where it's actually exactly not about that, but why do we actually do this shit? Or rather, it's more about, why do people do nonsense along the lines of, actually we're doing fine, we have enough to eat and so on, but we try to find undiscovered things or want to fly to Mars or back in the day, get on some ship and just sail 70 days in one direction and see if we bump into something. Exactly, and the Epic is maybe a bit of that too, sense-expanding I'd just call it. And that's the case A for the athletes and it's also always the case for me as a coach, when I switch into that perspective. So this year was really extreme because we had two extremely strong or three very strong teams up front. That was exciting, it was super exciting. For me of course it's a shame that Jakob Hahnmann got so sick two days before, because nothing was possible there anymore, because they were just so brutally in shape. That would have been really interesting. But yeah, at least now we've turned the corner with Jakob. So it really was a nasty viral infection and he dragged himself through it. And yeah, Marc Stutzmann with Porro despite...

Björn: Best Marathon team, right?

Niclas: Best Marathon team, and let me say, the preparation was far from optimal, with lots of illness and Porro cracked... Broken hand, right? Broken hand, I mean, that just has to be... Eight days of Epic with a broken hand, finishing fourth. Banged up, right? He crashed in Andalucia and I mean, that's already solid, right? Marc didn't ride a single proper race before. In Andalucia he couldn't ride because Porro had injured himself. Then he was sick and the week before Andalucia was really still, okay, how do we do this now? Can you even ride? Exactly, then Egger and Baum, also totally solid. Here and there maybe a bit underfueled, but on the last stage they pulled it all out again, that made me really happy. For both of them, especially for Georg, I mean, riding away from Schurter's wheel. That looked so awesome.

Björn: That looked so awesome. You could really see in his pedal stroke, okay, he's slamming down on it badly right now.

Niclas: When there are good high triple-digit numbers, when one horsepower is just cruising up there, then it gets a bit horse-power-y, so to speak. Exactly, then Vera Looser, also totally solid in second place, against Langvad and Gomez there wasn't much to do, although, you have to say, Annika also struggled and she's definitely beatable. Especially also struggled technically, like for example on the...

Björn: Yeah, often crashed, uphill, often had to dismount, had to run, over supposedly, like for example on this Paarl stage you could see it, in those switchbacks she constantly had to get off the bike, in those switchbacks, there was... I can't remember any where I had to dismount, they weren't that hard.

Niclas: Yeah, was good, when you haven't done it for a long time and then you're, you're grey, then you're not as coordinated anymore and then you maybe play it safe. It's like with training, when do you crash? You always only crash when you're actually close to home, because you're already in home mode and especially also greyed out, glycogen-depleted possibly and then... That was maybe the safety-first variant and was definitely also the right one, because she crashed badly a few times. And that could have ended very differently. Yeah, absolutely. That's what's exciting about the race. The horsepower you have, you have to put it on this course. She's certainly physiologically brutal and clearly better than everyone else at the start. But yeah, you have to put the horsepower on the road. That reminds me of this commercial, and this commercial is so old that even I as a kid still have it really far back in my mind. It was the commercial with, I think Carl Lewis, the sprinter. And it was Pirelli back then. And he had high heels on and stood in those starting blocks for the sprint and then it said, Power is nothing without control. And that's exactly what it's about. You can have too much power and if you can't transfer it to the ground, then you're just standing there. And that's a bit of the main problem.

Björn: Yeah, also for the supposed favorite team around Specialized with King Swanson. Had back problems all week and there was nothing.

Niclas: Yeah, that was really crazy. Like I would have really thought, or many on paper said, that's the team, they'll tear it apart, and actually after the first day it was clear, nothing's happening. And then someone had back problems and this and that. So in the end it was exciting to see how supposedly good they were supposed to be and how bad. They weren't bad either, right? But let me say, Matthew Beers maneuvered through that pretty well and they ended up in the GC, what are they, sixth, seventh? Yeah.

Björn: The result, but ultimately, he came there to defend his title and he was pretty pissed off. He had actually, I think, after the first day, you have to give Beers credit, he checked on the first day, okay, we're not winning this thing this year, and he still pulled it through professionally for seven days from the front and dragged Kiegen once across South Africa.

Niclas: Yeah, Andi and Tim on the last stage, they had to let off some steam and just ride at the front, much to the UCI's displeasure.

Björn: Yeah, and the commentators also didn't think it was so cool that suddenly Tim and Seewald were beaming up at the front.

Niclas: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Björn: But you can't blame the rider. You prepare all winter for this race, you know everyone's watching, and you know, I'm in top form, and then to hold back and not blow your partner's doors off. Yeah.

Niclas: Yeah, that's super hard, especially when you're in such peak form, then it's of course really bitter. But yeah, that's how it is and I won't pass judgment on that.

Björn: I mean, you don't have to pass any judgment on it, but I think, or for everyone considering, do I show up at the start of an Epic Series event, you have to be clear, you have to ride with your partner for eight days, four days, six days. So it doesn't help if you're super good and you're constantly putting your partner under pressure downhill and he crashes five times. That doesn't help. You have to function as a team. I pushed Juri around for eight days. I think my shoulder muscles got stronger from all the pushing. But that's just, we knew it beforehand, we talked about it, and I said, every path where I can push her, I will push her.

Niclas: What position did you come into DC, actually?

Björn: Three? Fifth.

Niclas: Fifth, okay.

Björn: Juri ran herself empty on the last stages, I rode her empty the first four days basically and then it just got, the first few hours went well and then on the back end of the stages it just got really tough and then the other teams just rode away from us.

Niclas: Yeah, but still, I mean, in the Open Class or whatever it's called. Is it called Open? Yeah, Open Men. Yeah, Open Men. Still super, yeah.

Björn: I mean, riding to fifth place at 49.

Niclas: Yo, wild. That's super wild. Sorry, I think at 49 most have totally different worries. I wouldn't make it. But I'm not 49 yet either. But I'm getting close.

Björn: And... so first of all, I have very, very great respect for his physical performance and that he did it so well. But what I thought was way cooler, the dude rides downhill like on rails.

Niclas: Yeah, cool.

Björn: So he rides, even when he's grey, he just rides so cleanly and well downhill. And you can rely on it, you can push him uphill and he sits into the descent and just hammers the descent quickly. Mhm. Safe downhill. That was so much fun, riding with him.

Niclas: Awesome. Yeah, that's super. That's really good. So, now we have the awesome transition. In journalism you'd manage a mega awesome transition there. If you were writing now, you'd take an Epic stage and a rider rides himself pretty empty on a stage like that, because of lower carb intake, and then he comes to the finish and there's nothing right away. And then it's the next day and actually nothing really works anymore. And that would be the journalistic intro now. Then we'd start with the moderating part, so to speak, and we want to talk a bit about carbs. And especially a bit about a few studies, or rather one study we picked out. I dug up a few others, what's happening. And we found a really nice study that's also reasonably current. The Delaying Post-Exercise Carbohydrate Intake Impairs Next-Day Exercise Capacity, but not Muscle Glycogen or Molecular Response. So plainly put, it means, even if you eat carbs and it looks the same in muscle glycogen and the response on a molecular basis is also the same. It doesn't mean that performance is the same. And in this study they looked at what actually happens when there's a delayed carb intake after high-intensity training. And one group, it was a double-blind study, I think it was cross-over design, that means one group did one protocol and then it got switched later. So we ride ourselves empty one day, high-intensity. One group gets carbs immediately. How many grams? I think 2.4 per kilo body weight. I don't remember anymore. And the others get them only three hours later. Then they measured again how much glycogen is in there. They saw, okay, actually it's the same in both, pretty much the same. And the next day they rode again. And they found, even though glycogen is the same, those who ate later rode significantly worse. And that also happens with things like Cape Epic and similar. If you take in too little during the stage and afterwards maybe also not optimally, but especially during the stage and ride yourself slightly grey, then you're done the next day. If you look at how long it takes, that's not clear in this study, but there's a nice book about Muscle Physiology I think it's called, I'll send it, like 500 pages, and Gatorade also researches relatively a lot. They have a really good research department. How long does the resaturation of glycogen take, especially the fast-twitch fibers? That can take really long. And I usually count, despite good supply, with about 28 hours, sometimes also 40 hours. And that also explains it when people with high oxygen uptake and high lactate production rates ride themselves into the ground at the start.

Björn: Like they ride really fast on Sundays and afterwards...

Niclas: But aren't we trashing our oxygen uptake while doing it, because that's always the danger. And then he turned the Giro around in the last week, because he came with his high oxygen uptake and lowered the lactate production. That's also this classic phenomenon, we know it. So people with good oxygen uptake, high lactate production, it's like, first day works, second day is usually catastrophe and from the third day it gets a bit better, if the stages allow it. At an Epic it's tough because nothing ever rolls. And if you have stages where every day is full gas, then you won't catch up anymore. Up to a certain point, if at the end maybe there's a short one, then you might still get lucky that a bit stuck. But that's mainly the point. Shove carbs in whenever possible. Shows it pretty well. So don't skimp.

Björn: And what do you say? How many grams did your top riders take?

Niclas: Well, ideally I'd want them to take 120 grams, which is logistically difficult with this race and also with water supply, that's really a topic too. It's not like the WorldTour or whatever at the Tour, where a vehicle next to you just sticks it in your pocket, that doesn't exist. It just can't happen that we throw in too many carbs and have too little water, then they won't get absorbed. Then we switch from isotonic into all kinds of -tonics, hypotonic, hypertonic and so on, and too much, too little, and you have to calculate that a bit. And that's actually the big danger, that too little water is taken up. And then we have a concentration, that's what it's about, a particle concentration that we take up, that the body, the body always wants to basically establish a balanced medium, so to speak, then we additionally pull water from the body to dilute this... high energy-dense concentration, particle concentration. And then you're in deep trouble. Exactly, then you get really cramps, dehydrate. Then it would actually be smart in such a phase to even say, we take a concentration that's not isotonic, but also significantly more diluted. Then water is released back into the body. And you can't handle that at the Epic. That's really a problem. That's why hydration packs make total sense too. But I think with hydration pack development there's still a lot of potential, I have to say honestly. Especially the cooling aspect. You could put more brain power into that. Maybe I'll write to those USWE, are they called?

Björn: Yeah, but now you have to, which model do you have or what's your criticism?

Niclas: I've now tested various things. Okay. And also regarding heat regulation the effect is marginal. You can do that much smarter, because we actually have a relatively well-exposed area. We need to get ventilation and we need to get a direct contact surface to the fluid, because fluid, when it's cool, I mean, that pulls the heat away, that's what it's about ultimately. And you have to approach that smartly. And then you can really make something awesome out of it. Until now, the things just stick to your back, end of story. You have to put some brain power into that. And the Epic lends itself to it, because we have low humidity. That's why you can actually get a really good thing in terms of ventilation and stuff. And especially the cooling through the drink. That the pack is somehow handed to you in the second feed zone or something, when it gets really hot. Then it would be exciting.

Björn: Yeah, because we had the USWE with basically an insulated package around the bladder and we could always, so we rode with it every day and we just stopped at the VP, got ice water and dumped it back in and that way at least we had cooled drink and it stayed cool relatively long. And that was already pretty cool.

Niclas: Yeah.

Björn: But sure, the idea we always had, that the hydration pack basically, or the cold bladder lies on the back and cools us through that, you don't have that with this one, of course, because it's insulated.

Niclas: Yeah, that's the trick of the matter, that's what it should actually be about. But now we've gotten a bit off track. If we look at the study again, exactly, so what actually came out is that performance dropped. I think lactate buildup was also lower, which is totally interesting because they actually have the same muscle glycogen. So we definitely had an impairment or a, not impairment, well, a restriction of lactate metabolism or glycolysis through delayed intake, even though the carb amount over 24 hours was identical or the same. Also regarding gene activation, classic endurance markers like PGC1-alpha were also the same, so the expression was the same. And yeah, just exciting how exactly the mechanisms behind it are now, why two-hour-later intake then doesn't work after all. Despite the same muscle glycogen and similar markers, then leads to this restriction, you can take that as a takeaway and say, avoid running empty in the race and in training. And classically, when you do training that builds on each other, like first day VO2max and second day VO2max, eat during training, eat after training. Otherwise the next day will be catastrophe.

Björn: So I also say, especially with high-intensity stuff, the 80 grams per hour, those need to go in for sure. And really, you ride three hours and you have two bottles on the bike, don't just put 80 grams in per hour. That means you also need another 80 grams for the last hour. That means stop at the gas station again, get water and maybe another Maurten packet or... MX, no idea, doesn't matter at all, have it with you again. One athlete of mine always has a small can with him where he refills his iso-powder at home, so that he has another 80 grams in the jersey pocket. So it's really about taking that in per hour and not just having two bottles with 80 at the start. And also, what I often hear, yeah, I had another bar with me and there was only half an hour left until then, I didn't eat it anymore because I can eat at home. No. What you can eat on the bike, there are studies on this, everything you eat on the bike, what you eat during the activity and a quarter hour after the bike, gets absorbed better in the muscles. It arrives much faster because the cells are still working. That means, if you can eat on the bike and also right after eat properly and also right after... A handful of gummy bears, that's perfect. You don't have to immediately get off the bike and shovel oatmeal into yourself. That arrives too slowly, instead really stuff that arrives quickly. Take in directly and then you're much better fueled than if you do it differently.

Niclas: Yeah, definitely. I then looked again at what actually happens with low-carb stuff, so when energy runs out on you, because that's also discussed again and again and is coming back soon, I think. What happens or are there advantages if we train low carb.

Björn: Okay, but do you really think it's coming back?

Niclas: Yeah, I think it's really coming back. It will definitely, everything comes back. I think the trend is coming and I also think we have to think a bit smarter about it. It's more about gene expression so to speak. What type you are. Well, no, how can you trigger with certain nutritional approaches? For athletes, well, for high-performance athletes the topic is relatively, let me say, off the table, because we always train so much that we possibly run ourselves empty permanently, but... I found something there, it's a Systematic Review, so a meta-analysis. Responses to exercise with low carbohydrate availability on muscle glycogen and cell signaling. And basically, what actually happens with low carb status before, during and after training on molecular adaptation processes in the muscle. And especially gene expression and glycogen status. And then they looked at it a bit. Low carb and high carb things. And actually, of course we have some markers that spike there. Also regarding effects of low carb on gene expression and so on are also partly elevated. But what's interesting is actually, this PGC1 alpha doesn't have such a crazy significant effect under low carb. The effect only occurs when we have a strong drop. So it's actually about, you have to ride yourself into a strong glycogen depletion. Then you have this effect. That means you start... No, no, listen. You do this. You do this and athletes who train with me do that occasionally. And now think about when we do it.

Björn: When we burn through energy for days.

Niclas: No, not necessarily. That's the days before races. That means, if we have a race on Sunday, we usually ride long again on Thursday. Like five, six hours and partly also a bit under, let's say, not completely empty carbs, so we don't ride ourselves, let me say, reduced intake, like at 60 percent, so you arrive home a bit grilled. And then we have this drainage. And this effect that you definitely know, or I know it especially well, you ride yourself into the basement once, then the next day you have, or two days later, a brutal fitness boost. On the other side you have especially also, that's just team, right, classic, we also have this refilling of glycogen stores a bit higher. You don't have to do it as crazily as Saltin described it back then. With well-trained athletes that also goes quickly in two days. You don't have to like three days low carb and not eat anything, train yourself completely into the ground. But that's actually what it's about. The drop has to be relatively high and then we have this gene expression. They say, we start reasonably full and ride ourselves really empty, then it fits. We need a carb restriction, that's not enough. We have to start full and arrive empty. That's what it's about.

Björn: Yeah, was that fit. That's super. When you've done that once.

Niclas: Yeah, so I'll ride myself empty for four weeks straight.

Björn: If I have the choice between, we do four weeks of low carb, and I ride myself empty once on Thursday, then that's of course something different.

Niclas: That's true. Totally exciting. That's why I also think that this... that these ideas of how to fine-tune nutrition strategies a bit more, and not just like, we're in a phase of, still in such a sledgehammer phase. We were earlier in this low-carb sledgehammer phase, around 2008, 2009, 2010, also still with Sky, we did a lot of low carb. And now we've swung over to more is better, more is everything. 160 grams, all in, no matter if we puke it up five times and still become European champion in Ironman. Doesn't matter. I think we'll soon experience something and I see it partly already, that we're a bit... Crafting in carb intake.

Björn: I think exactly the person you just hinted at, Olav Alexander Bu, would or at least, you also hinted at Kristian Blummenfelt, but his coach is Bu, who basically controls everything. He would probably want to contradict you a bit right now, because what I see in him and what he also at least, probably he can follow the train of thought, but he would probably also at least publicly propagate, no, more carbs is always better, no matter what comes. At least he's doing that right now at UNO-X. The riders just had a press post where they also said again, yeah, they see the trend more towards, we'll all or all pros will basically have one, two more kilos on the ribs and thereby also achieve better watts per kilogram, because they fundamentally achieve, over, let me say, 24-7 throughout the day, to be better fueled and therefore recover better and therefore again just become more performant. And basically through that build so much more absolute watts that it offsets the watts per kilogram, the one or two more kilos you then have.

Niclas: Yeah, so saying contradict. I just put that out there as a thesis. What happens? And I can imagine there will be people who experiment with it. It's of course always the question, even if we can take in very high carb amounts in training, the question is always, how well do we set it, how can we implement it in the race, because the very big danger is always, I mean, 160 grams, you already think, that's already brutally a lot. That works. Well no, no, it's especially not a lot for the body. If now someone with, no idea, if you ride around with however many watts per kilo, 400 watts, then you blow out three, four hundred grams of carbs an hour quickly. That means intake is just the limiting factor. And the other thing, and that's actually maybe even more interesting, is that with high-intensity stuff, like someone attacks, that we just switch off beta-oxidation, fat metabolism. That's the big problem. If we run a metabolic simulation, then, very plainly put, a wattage also always defines the carb or the mix of macronutrients. How many proteins, carbs and fats are going through right now. If you had a spirometry mask on, you'd see that. But it's not that simple, because those aren't fixed values. If you ride yourself once into the ground, then your metabolism runs a bit differently afterwards. Then you don't say, okay, I'm now riding 500 watts, that means I'm riding 100% carbs and then I ride 100 watts again and then I'm in fat metabolism again. Not true. Beta-oxidation is restricted. Massively restricted, can be restricted for really long. That means we have a significantly higher carb consumption. And that's actually the exciting thing. That's now also the topic of how can you simulate that the carb metabolism is still lagging. And then I'll be mean now, now we add a third dimension, cadence. Yeah, I mean cadence.

Björn: Yeah, exactly, we had the topic recently.

Niclas: Exactly, so that's now the next dimension. How do we get cadence in there in the sense of, do I pedal slowly and maybe activate many slow fibers, but then have lactate buildup in the muscle, or do I pedal a bit faster and clear the lactate.

Björn: But you burn differently depending on what you ride.

Niclas: Exactly. That's the exciting thing. If you look at the simulation we currently have, Mader or Hek, the various parameters they set up back then, it's mostly tested at 90 rpm, I think. And that's just problematic. If you look at the Hek simulation, then we actually see, at least when we simulate it and rebuild it, we always see that under constant conditions we get really good data and constant means in the lab. 100 watts, 100 watts and there's no peak. But if we let it run on real-world data or have someone ride a sprint, then the PCR store, the creatine phosphate, the very fast stores rush super empty and then this model doesn't work at all anymore. Then it crashes. And with VLamax it works, but we have to work significantly in raising oxygen uptake. But there are problems there too of course. So ultimately we're not there yet. The wisdom hasn't fallen yet. And especially cadences and simulating restriction of fat metabolism. Those are also things that are coming. And then you see that at a Cape Epic stage like that, when they really push it in, ride really hard and afterwards only a bit of sweet spot and you think, actually they could ride faster, why aren't they doing it? They just briefly switched off their fat metabolism.

Björn: And that's also... You can't forget that. If you ride an Egger sweet spot, with the high wattages there are still incredibly high amounts of carbs going through. And if his fat metabolism is completely off, he can't really... It's super hard to refill that. You just ride yourself empty in such a stage on the back end.

Niclas: Right. And that's why I also think that maybe such an approach will come back. We see now with Pogačar or Jonas Vingegaard that of course they ride with high oxygen uptakes. And actually only those two can keep up with that. Everyone else who does it, they burn out and then run empty over the course of three weeks. And Sky solved it very differently back then. I mean, that's already a long time ago, right. They just said, we just ride watts per kilo and just don't chase these attacks at all. With the limits, of course they had Low Carb too.

Björn: Actually a tactic that, when you hear all this, you say, that's super smart. Because with that, we can pull through three weeks, because our riders don't shoot off their fat metabolism and they don't ride themselves dead with that.

Niclas: When Vingegaard won the Tour the first time, they did exactly that. Pogačar attacked x times, they just kept the base pace brutally high. The whole time, the whole time, the whole time. And then this Hasse just attacked. But Pogačar is just a brutal exception. With his mega oxygen uptake and his good glycolytic performance, he can really hammer something away. But the riders are catching up. The training is getting smarter. It's especially the nutrition, and carbs play a massive role there, makes a big difference and you don't have to greatly resort to forbidden means or fundamentally resort to them. I mean, earlier they trained themselves so low that they didn't build up lactate anymore and you just refill it with red blood cells and then you have a wonderful oxygen uptake and ride 7 watts the whole time around the area. I mean, how crazy is that, riding 500 watts somehow up the mountains, that's already abnormal, right. When Armstrong rode 7 watts on the Tour stage, up the Madonne I think, then it's just crazy. So it's completely wild. And then with the material, you can't forget that either, he had nothing aerodynamic big or it was still kind of in the beginnings. With tires that didn't roll, it's just completely spooky. But I think, to bring it back around, we have a high carb phase now. I can imagine there will be changes again.

Björn: But then more in the direction, we don't stop doing everything high carb, but rather, in that sense I'd now speak of, we supplement. We supplement this high carb phase, we don't only, only, only do high carb, we do very specifically at very specific points targeted low carb, but then fuel that very, very well again. To then in turn come out with a better effect or an effect that we want with rider X at time X.

Niclas: Yeah, exactly. On that I also fished out a study. I have to check, when is it actually from? Oh, I can't find it anymore. So that was a 5-Week-Periodised-Carbohydrate-Diet-Does-Not-Improve-Maximal-Lactate-Steady-State-Exercise-Capacity. So plainly put, you let a few people ride low, you let a few people ride high and then they looked at the MLSS and found, nothing happens. They took 17 well-trained riders. VO2max peak was around 70. I think really only the peak was measured, because they had threshold power of 250. So either they weigh nothing, like really nothing, nothing.

Björn: Or they weren't so well trained.

Niclas: Yeah, if they had abnormal glycolytic performances too, but I think they just took a peak, like a one-second peak, and not a smoothed performance, so they probably had somewhere around 60 rather, and were still all very light, and then you had a periodized carbohydrate group, like, of 13 training sessions out of 35 they did with low carb availability, and then you had a high carbohydrate group that just ate the whole time. And they did the absolutely identical training, don't know if that's so meaningful, you could also, although, sure, you want to compare it. And what happened? Nothing happened. That's actually totally, well, significantly actually little happened. The periodized carbohydrate group added 30 watts on average, but also started with 245 watts. And the other added 16 watts, but also started a bit lower. That's not a significant improvement yet. Now you can say, okay, the periodized carb availability had a slight increase. So you do see that in the study, even if it says it's significant. So significant it isn't, but we see a difference. Yeah, time to exhaustion at MLSS, both rode the same, it should be that way, as a rule, muscle mass was the same in both or rather also rose the same, body fat percentage dropped significantly in both groups, I don't know, have to look at the training again, if they're hammering away the whole time and burning through proper kilojoules, then you'll just get thinner. And yeah, no differences in substrate utilization, or rather utilization. Carb and fat burning was identical, heart rate and so on, all the same. Lactate and so on also similar. What we see is maybe a slight increase in threshold power, but that's also not significant in those who periodized. It is of course, like always in sports science, I mean, 17 riders is really thin ice. That's just nothing. That's nothing. That's really nothing at all. Those are the things I picked out a bit. And now everyone can make sense of it. We see, that's the mean part, it'll cause a lot of confusion. But what you can say, in a race, in a race really try, or also in training when you know, I want to throw down again the next day, the carbs just have to be right. You can't, and I'm preaching this like a broken record, in training you can't start fantasizing about Haribo bears, because then you already know, that's the day, tomorrow I'll be shit in training. You have to come home and say, I don't really have a huge hunger. And afterwards stuff yourself well again and then it'll work the next day too, especially when you've really, really hard pushed yourself.

Björn: Absolutely. I see it the same way. Now, just... so people get an idea, what is a rider after the Cape Epic when he hard pushes himself? Or also between the stages, what amounts are we talking about?

Niclas: Yeah, so I'd say like 12 grams per kilo body weight should somehow get in over the day.

Björn: Okay, over the day, and that includes the load on the bike too then.

Niclas: Yeah, yeah, comes out a bit, yeah. Always check a bit. That's actually quite a lot. 12 grams. So if we somehow, let's say, we have here, me as a math whiz actually.

Björn: 12 grams would now in my case be something between 1.5 to 2 kilos of pasta.

Niclas: Yeah, uncooked.

Björn: Yeah, exactly, uncooked.

Niclas: That's a lot. And that's also a digestion thing. That's why things like leaving out fats or few fats, leaving out fiber. It's just pure shoveling in. Shoveling in of the simplest carbs. Rice pudding cooked in oat milk. Or pasta or rice. So no potatoes, those aren't energy-dense enough. So it's just trash food. Haribos. Exactly. White bread with honey. Exactly. Hoping you don't get constipation, although the stomach is so messed up anyway that it's usually no problem. In South Africa you don't get constipation. Did I tell you the story? I was at the Epic back then with Centurion VD and let me say, the sanitary situation has always been difficult in Africa, at least at the Epic. It used to be. Meanwhile every team basically goes into a house. Oh right, exactly. At least there were for the people who slept in the tent, lots of people sleep in the tent, there was a row, I don't know, of 50 porta-potties next to each other. Yeah, and also showers and so on. And I was there, I was washing up and there were these porta-potties and also these showers and suddenly a shower exploded next to a porta-potty. It really, it flew up. And I thought, oh my god, the door sprung off, the toilet flew up and huge drama, it sprayed around and you don't know how many feces flew through the area. And I just thought, oh my god, where's the person who was in there? But luckily no one was in. It was a major explosion, was impressive. I still remember that very vividly. Yeah, it was very, very exciting. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, so always have food with you. So I do it relatively simply. Best practice. I don't have any desire to mix drinks and stuff together. I do recommend it because it's simple and easy. You just buy yourself a sack of malto and then it's easy and maybe also fructose, if you want, if you drink a bit harder. I have a recipe because I send my athletes. Or that. I do it simply. I have up front... I have lots of great bikes, but I most like to ride this ancient gravel bike of mine. And I have an Ortlieb handlebar bag on it. In this Ortlieb handlebar bag I have Haribos. And specifically I always have the Pico-Balla. Do you know them?

Björn: Yeah, sure.

Niclas: They're awesome.

Björn: Actually I don't like them at all.

Niclas: Why are we even talking here? And you can snack them away so wonderfully. You have like 100, 200 grams. That might be a really big package, but there's also 100 grams I think. Or you take Katjes, there's no fat in those, if you want to watch out for that.

Björn: Katjes Grünohrhasen they're called, I think.

Niclas: Those I find super awesome. I like the yogurt gums, I find them super. I imagine there are still proteins in there, but I don't think there are proteins in there. I always think those are like BCAAs in tasty. That would be awesome. Definitely exists. There must be such protein gums, right? Yeah, but do you think there are protein gums that also taste good? That's the problem with amino acids. They always taste like shit. And if they taste good, then you know there's a lot of scientific shit in them.

Björn: Yeah, actually I'm just a fan of normal Haribos. Yeah, exactly. Classic gold bears always works.

Niclas: Yeah, I could pull out a few more studies, but I think we've slowly exhausted it now and we've already chased away three quarters or seven eighths of the listeners anyway when I start with simulations. But it was a fun podcast, also for me.

Björn: Definitely. And what you should actually take away from this is, I think, that athletes have to learn, really, when they and also for the hobby athlete or amateur athlete training 15 hours, fuel yourselves properly on the bike and that's challenging here and there for sure, yeah, but it's actually also easier than you think. So, those 80 grams on the bike.

Niclas: Yeah, I mean, that's not challenging. In Germany, well honestly, if you run empty, you just ride to the gas station.

Björn: Yeah, you need the liter of Coke.

Niclas: Yeah, so Coke or Haribo. Oh, nice anecdote. I don't drink caffeine, you know that. Or if then somehow only a Coke light. I recently grabbed a Pepsi Max, by the way. Had like two cans and drank them down comfortably before work or during work. And at some point I noticed, whoa, somehow low blood sugar, somehow I don't feel good at all. And then I was cooking and thought, hey, I'm about to fall over here. Really strange. I found out. Pepsi Max has double the amount of caffeine in it as a Coke light. And I was totally shocked and it was really a lot. Yo, if you feed that to kids, which of course you don't do, you don't give kids Coke, that's some crazy stuff. I was totally on it.

Björn: Okay, didn't know that.

Niclas: Yeah, learned something again.

Björn: For me as a caffeine junkie, Pepsi is super.

Niclas: Yeah, so actually if you don't feel like coffee or no coffee available, grab Pepsi Max. Awesome, learned something again.

Björn: That's what I take away from this podcast. Very good.

Niclas: I was asked recently, Mieke was here. I gave Mieke a gift. Do you know stick insects? Or ghost insects? Those are animals that look like sticks.

Björn: Okay.

Niclas: Those are insects, they're this big.

Björn: Oh, the picture from Instagram from yesterday, day before yesterday?

Niclas: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think yesterday. And she was here, they're driving now to Wörthersee with Annem. And we have so many of these critters. I mean, they're our pets. And I gave her a few stick insects. They're now at Wörthersee. Don't mind if little sticks walk around. At least Mieke asked me, my top 4 movies. Okay. That was really, I thought about it for two days. Top 4 movies. Now it gets hard.

Björn: I just rewatched one of my favorite movies with my girlfriend, because the second part is now coming to the cinema. The Accountant. With whom? It's about a tax advisor. Slash also somewhere. Actually it's a tax advisor who has Asperger's syndrome and is a brilliant mathematician.

Niclas: Don't all Aspergers have tax advisor. Yeah.

Björn: And he was the son of an Army governor and his father taught him how to fight, shoot and all that stuff really well. And he basically became the tax advisor of the mafia and the biggest criminals in the world and was therefore then sought by the Americans. And the movie is about wanting to find out, who is the accountant.

Niclas: Ben Affleck.

Björn: So I find the movie super awesome and the second movie is now coming to the cinema and that's why I had to watch it now with my girlfriend and I'm looking forward to when we can soon go to the cinema and watch the second part.

Niclas: So the last movies I saw in the cinema were, I, what was it called, Babygirl with Nicole Kidman. Was okay. Then I watched the movie about Bob Dylan or by Bob Dylan, I also found that pretty good. Then The Substance, I found that excellent with Demi Moore, but those aren't movies that reach into my top tier. So, Eastern Promises is a really great movie. Do you know it?

Björn: Doesn't ring a bell at all.

Niclas: You're watching it tonight.

Björn: Eastern Promises, you have to show me right away.

Niclas: Eastern Promises by David Cronenberg I think it is. With Viggo Mortensen. Great movie. Great. And Armin Mueller-Stahl. Great movie. Naomi Watts as the lead. Great. Then there are also funny movies like Adam's Apples. Also nice movie. Also with Mads Mikkelsen in the lead as a pastor. I still remember, I saw it back then in Hamburg with my roommate, who came from... Japan, a Japanese pianist, and she was severely disturbed because I found this movie incredibly funny and just laughed myself to pieces. It also has, has very dark humor, kind of dogma-Danish stuff. But now we're already completely off topic again. Yeah.

Björn: Okay. So the message to all athletes, eat more carbs.

Niclas: Exactly. And watch good. Please. If you have good movies, send us your favorite movies. I want to learn something. So I now suggested that and Niclas, The Accountant with Ben Affleck as Asperger. Can you actually still say Asperger? It's politically already difficult, right? Because Aspergers were, I think, those who in the Third Reich were considered a bit smarter and autists were just put down around the corner. Oh, yeah.

Björn: Yeah, sad.

Niclas: But I'm not sure now. I could really be on totally thin ice now.

Björn: I just don't want to comment on it.

Niclas: That's also always better.

Björn: Just shut up. I only talk about what I half know.

Niclas: Yeah, dangerous half-knowledge is the best.

Björn: Thanks for listening and in the optimal case, we hear each other again next week. Thank you.

Niclas: See you soon. Ciao, ciao.