Despeja la mente: estrategias para el máximo rendimiento mental

Björn: Welcome to the A Faster You Podcast, where everything revolves around endurance sports and training. Here, Sebastian Schluricke, Björn Kafka, and Niclas Ranker give you valuable tips and insights to help you take your performance to the next level. So, a warm welcome to a new episode of the A Faster You Podcast. Good evening, Björn. Niclas, hi. We've put in the effort again. This time, as always, we tackled polarizing questions. You do 90, I do 10. Well, it's really 99 to 1. We have another guest. Yeah, I have to say, I always prepare the podcast, so I come up with questions, dig up studies and things like that, but you're the one who brings in all the guests. In that sense, it is 50-50. Okay, good, very good. Tell me, who do we have today? Today we have Eva-Marie Sperger, a psychologist with a diploma and a successful ultra-runner. Exactly. And if I remember correctly, your athlete. Right. Yes, because you also talked about her on the Innovation Podcast. Right. I don't even know if Eva ever heard that. Of course. Okay. Good evening, Eva. Right, we'll introduce her briefly. Or rather, we just agreed in the pre-talk, because we're not sure if the information I have from the internet is correct, that I'll just start and you jump in if anything's off. Absolutely. Good, so you were born on the 25th of... December 1997, you're currently... that's not right. Oh awesome, that's bought, immediately. Okay. 79.

Niclas: 79. Okay. Are you a Capricorn? The same. You too, right? Yes, yes.

Björn: Okay, okay. Nice. Very good. You used to be a cyclist and a Thai boxer.

Niclas: Yes, I did Thai boxing competitively. Cycling was more of a hobby. I rode a lot, let's put it that way.

Björn: Okay, good, with the age I could have guessed if you read on. In your mid-30s you started with trail competitions and then mainly ultra-trail races, if I see this correctly. In 2017 you were the German ultra-trail champion, and the Trail Magazine named you Trail Runner of the Year in 2019 and 2020. And in 2020 you ran with your partner from Garmisch-Partenkirchen to Chamois, Chamonix, 720 kilometers, 55,000 meters of elevation in 23 days. To me, as someone with absolutely no running talent, that sounds very painful.

Niclas: It was painful at times.

Björn: I can imagine. Okay. If I look at it, since 2016 you've won several ultra races. Last year alone, the Blue Trail in Tenerife, over 110 kilometers. Second at the Eiger Ultra Trail. Even I've heard of the Eiger. And third place at the Ultra Trail Cape Town. Yes.

Niclas: Okay.

Björn: Is there anything you definitely still want to mention?

Niclas: I think one thing might be important, because I worked toward it for four years. That was the UTMB, the Ultra Trail du Mont Blanc, which is among the most world-famous races and the most competitive. It's really almost the unofficial world championship, you could say. And I had to drop out twice. So it's 170 kilometers with 10,000 meters of elevation. And I finally made it, and finished in a great top ten place for me. So that was definitely another milestone, you could say.

Björn: Okay. How long does it take for 170 kilometers with 10,000 meters of elevation? I mean, just to cycle that is already totally crazy. But to run it...

Niclas: Yeah, I took 28 hours.

Björn: Do you run nonstop, or do you take a 30-minute power nap at some point?

Niclas: No, no, well, maybe, I really try to keep the breaks to a maximum of three, four, five minutes at a station, where you eat, drink, replenish and so on. Yeah, I try to get through the stations as quickly as possible.

Björn: Wow, okay. So earlier with my girlfriend I went through the Wikipedia article and I said, I find running 100 kilometers of trail more impressive than an Ironman. Just thinking about it for myself, if I had the choice between doing an Ironman or running 100 kilometers of trail, I'd rather do the Ironman, because I can't imagine running for that long.

Niclas: I'd rather run 100 kilometers than 15 kilometers in Olympia Park.

Björn: Yeah. Okay. And then, besides all the athletic achievements, you're a psychologist and work as a psychotherapist.

Niclas: Exactly. And even as a mental trainer now, because simply through being an athlete myself, athletes from all kinds of sports keep coming to me. But that's more of a smaller thing on the side, you could say.

Björn: Okay, very good. In preparation for the podcast, I came up with questions and also asked athlete friends what questions they'd have from an athlete's perspective for a psychologist who works in sport psychology and also in coaching and mental training. And then I thought of questions mainly from a coach's perspective as well. If I remember correctly, you shortened the questions a bit, because I think some of them overlapped a bit, didn't they? Or Björn, did you shorten them? Not shortened, I think, or I don't know, maybe, but there are so many questions that we won't get through all of them.

Niclas: Well, we can do it, then we'll just sit here a bit longer tonight. Because the questions were really cool, I just had the concern that it might get a bit long.

Björn: Okay. Björn, which perspective should we start with? I suspect for the listeners, the athlete perspective is probably more interesting first. I'm not sure if that's so exciting. I actually find the coaching perspective really interesting too. Which of the three coaching questions appealed to you most? Me or Eva? Yeah, you, Björn. Let's take, I'd take question 2. What can an athlete do when they have the feeling they're not training enough, even though the training load is already sufficient or even too high? Yeah, that's, I think... That's mean, Eva.

Niclas: You know what my husband said about this question? He said it's like asking him about playing the piano. But of course I thought about it.

Björn: Okay. It's difficult, of course. You basically have to answer the question from a sport-psychological, or psychological perspective, not from an athlete's perspective.

Niclas: Yeah, from a coach angle, exactly. Okay. So the question is, what do you do when someone has the feeling they're not training enough or that it's not sufficient?

Björn: I think, especially given that many athletes, mainly through social media, I'd guess, or bike races or other podcasts, always have the feeling that they need to do more, and it's also partly conveyed that way, okay, more is always better. And I think some athletes simply can't admit to themselves that they're exhausted, that they're tired. And my experience is, the athlete does too much for so long, and keeps trying to hit 110, 120 percent of the training plan, adding something extra here and something extra there, until at some point it snaps, and then they come to the coach and say, yeah, but why am I completely wiped out, because you didn't intervene.

Niclas: Yeah, I'd answer it like this. I think there is, the basis is probably that you say, okay, starting from a goal, so for example my goal would be to run the Eiger again this year. What does it take? What do I actually want to develop in? And how do you translate that into a micro and macro cycle? So that I know, okay, now come the six weeks for this, six weeks for that, six weeks for that. And is there any kind of measurement regarding how do I measure whether this is working, so that you have feedback. I think that already gives you a lot of confidence that it works. I think otherwise it just hangs in the air, or it's somehow, trust, but on what basis am I actually giving my trust to all this? So I don't think that's anything psychological, but I think you just need that, to somehow make things visible, measurable. I mean, graphs, when you see the development, I think that's already great. And then I'd say you address exactly these things concretely, where you know, for probably every athlete who's truly, totally ambitious, this will be a topic. In therapy I also have these points, intuitive things, where people automatically, intuitively go in a certain direction. And they'd never go in the other direction. And in the end, I need to say, okay, usually people think I shouldn't do this or that under any circumstances, or as a coach to say, okay, most people think more is always better and they have their role models and you see it with them and at XY you see it too, that you bring this in actively as a topic. And address it and somehow give the feeling, I'm fully aware of this and I've also thought about the question, and okay, based on this and that science and data and so on, it makes sense to simply bring up the patience. And I think I'd also bring in the right amount of confrontation. So you'd say, okay, of course it would be cooler if you could develop even faster. Yeah, all of us would buy that. But unfortunately, it's about continuity, or it's about continuity and finding the right amount, that you bring this in somehow. And I think then I'd say, two more things I find really important, namely first, that you bring in continuous feedback, that I really go through the week, that you have a regular appointment, look at it, give feedback, what happened last week, how was it implemented. And in therapy there's this concept of caring firmness. I think sometimes you're afraid of confrontation because you don't want to offend anyone and you somehow shy away from conflict. And at the same time, I think when you say in a loving way, hey, we both want the same thing. So it's really cool that you're willing to do a lot, that's a great thing. So motivation is definitely there. And at the same time, it's too much. So that you simply bring in this firmness, this firmness component, in a loving way. And I also think that this confrontation in the right places is really good, so you need it, and also clarity, where maybe I don't have to take things so seriously or have a bit of freedom. There are a thousand things to consider. And as an athlete you don't really know where do I really need to be precise and where do I have total leeway to just shape it freely, so that it doesn't stress me out. And I think, at the right spot, to say, listen, let's look at the week again. Okay, that was this much and that much and it would be important to me that... So having the necessary firmness... And then the complete opposite position, I think, is also really important to listen. I think if someone is brand new and really has very little knowledge, then they simply need competence and trust in the plan. But I also think that in my case, I've been training for ten years now and for nine years with training plans. That means I look, I know myself inside and out. I've received a lot of pointers. I probably, so a trainer can never know me as precisely as I myself have such a precise feeling for myself in daily training. And I also think that this is a really, really, really important foundation, that I have the feeling a coach is also willing to listen to me. Because they're actually recommending things into a system that they don't experience daily or don't know. And on the coach side or also as a therapist, when you're in that role, you automatically want to show your competence and simply communicate, I know what I'm doing and I know why. So you always go to the side of convincing and having the knowledge. But I think for the feeling of competence, it could actually be totally useful to, for a moment, have the willingness to set aside your own knowledge and listen with a real willingness to engage, to open up to it, and see, hey, maybe that person, maybe it really is too little. Maybe that person has a point. Maybe I'll learn things there, why does that person think this way, where I'd even think, oh yeah, okay, maybe I didn't know that or see it that way.

Björn: Yeah, I think what I'm mainly hearing is definitely the point that the athlete and the coach should communicate enough about the right things together. So especially when it comes to, how much time do I have for my training, that on one hand the athlete has to realistically say how much time he has during the week, especially when we're talking about hobby and amateur athletes who still have a normal job, it's really important for the coach to know, okay, how many hours does he realistically have available, and then, to the question, how are you, also having the courage to say, yeah, okay, the week will be stressful, I might not be feeling so well, and then on the coach's side to say, yeah, okay, then we might have to ease off a bit. To train heavily on top of the stress level this week isn't so sensible. Let's shift down a gear. And next week when things are a bit more relaxed again, we can do more. And I think that's... That's at least what I mainly understood, that it's definitely important that there's two-way communication, and that both athlete and coach dare to bring things up. And that it's important to understand the other's feedback and to listen to them, and to incorporate it if needed, when the athlete really believes, yeah okay, you only write 10 hours in the plan, but I have 15 hours and the week is relaxed. And I feel healthy, and we haven't trained much the last few weeks. Maybe then it really does make sense to make it 15 that week.

Niclas: Yeah, and then in this... Feedback process, if I notice, okay, it's happening, so we talked about it and as a coach I believe it's really too much, and it happens again and again, that you then also give the corresponding feedback, so you listen on one hand, what's the reason or what's someone's background thinking, and on the other hand also the courage to really be clear, to be lovingly clear.

Björn: I think I definitely still need to work on the loving part. At least I hope so, because I don't mean it badly with any of my athletes, but I think sometimes in a simple WhatsApp message it doesn't come across that way. Maybe you should send a voice message, so they also hear that I don't mean it badly.

Niclas: Yeah, this caring firmness, I kind of like it as a term. And I think you really do someone good with it, right? For example, if I'm working with someone as a therapist, for sleep disorders there's a very simple principle called sleep restriction, reducing sleep time. Now someone comes who's already totally tired and has been sleeping badly for years, and now you tell them, okay, we're going to shorten your sleep time even more, and it means, okay, you'll really be truly exhausted for the next while. That's a super harsh procedure.

Björn: That sounds really great, too.

Niclas: It works super well. It's really the best of what you can do with sleep disorders. And I think at that point, if I now have someone who agreed to it but things go differently, then I'd want to somehow convey, hey, it's a bit of a shame if you don't stick to it, because you keep frustrating yourself too. So you put a lot in, or do something, implement it partially, but you don't get the benefit out. And that's what I mean by caring firmness, that you tell someone, I know it's so hard and so difficult to trust it. But I'm caring in the way that I push it through, because I want someone to get something out of it, and have a positive effect, and have a sense of success at the end.

Björn: Yeah, so I think it's also important that the athlete has the feeling the coach has the same goal, that you're pursuing a goal together, and that the coach is just as behind it and also wants the athlete to finish this or that race well and reach their goals there. This is very exciting here actually, listening to both of you, because in the background the whole time I have the feedback loop running. I coach Eva and I coach Niclas.

Niclas: It's extremely exciting, Björn, to hear your perspective.

Björn: Now the question is, does Björn give loving enough feedback? I don't know. So far I'm definitely very satisfied with it. I adapt to the person, I'd say. There are people who want to know things very precisely and want explanations for why I do what. And then there are some you basically never talk to and it just runs. There's no better or worse. The advantage is, and Eva already said it, listening, or constantly questioning yourself, is simply part of a coach's process. So, what I'm doing now, is it good or is it not good, did it work, did it not work well, can I also justify why I do something? And when I can no longer answer those questions, or the things I try to justify are somehow flimsy, well, that's where the coach's demand on their own skills also grows. And that's something I continually engage with.

Niclas: I also think it has to fit together. I think the most important basis is probably that you like someone. Because there are people where, when you ask a lot or follow up a lot, which I definitely like doing, I can also understand that someone feels attacked by it. And then I think it's just not a good thing. And Björn, with you I don't get the impression that it attacks you in any way. I'm being challenged. I like that, you know that. Yeah, exactly. And I think if the basis weren't there, so if you notice you don't like someone that well, if you have some kind of resistance, then it won't work anyway. Then overall, I think, it just won't work well, because it resonates nonverbally, verbally. It comes across somehow.

Björn: Yeah, I also definitely find it more pleasant and easier when the athlete asks a lot of questions, and I'd rather he asks me ten questions about the training plan and then implements the training plan the way I thought of it and the way I think is right, than him simply not implementing it as written, or shuffling days around, and doing things differently, doing intervals differently, and then asking afterwards or saying afterwards, yeah, I couldn't do this or that, and this and that didn't work out. You could have mentioned it to me beforehand. That's, I think, an important point that athletes and coaches alike simply have to internalize. Nice. Now a question from the athlete perspective. If we're still with coach, I mean, I'd almost say we should do another coach question. One question Eva would like to have. You have the list of questions anyway, right?

Niclas: Yes, I have it. I have it in front of me. Exactly. You added the question about what makes a good and trusting relationship. That was of course partly a question for your... expertise as a psychotherapist, and I think there's really a huge benefit in that, simply because I notice that a good relationship between coach and athlete, in this case, makes up so much motivation and so much fun and joy, and it's something you simply spend so much time with, training, and put so much effort into, so I find it's simply a gain when it works well. And yeah, I think for me, what makes a good relationship would be this yin and yang, so I'd say a certain serenity, a certain lightness on one hand, and also encouragement, offering trust, and on the other hand also this perseverance and firmness, so both somehow, being able to foster and to challenge. So this yin and yang, I find that really important. And yeah, to bring in appreciation somewhere, to be able to communicate competence, and to be able to listen. So to have interest in what ideas someone has, or what they're coming up with, or why they're approaching something this way, I find that really important. And if you look at the basic needs, what does it actually take to be motivated? So what do you need to have motivation? Then on one hand it's a certain degree of autonomy. That would mean that if, as a coach, you were totally dominant, dictating everything and pushing it through, that would contradict autonomy a bit. So that somewhere you also bring in a certain degree of freedom. How do I implement this, or own ideas, so that you have a certain felt creative space. So autonomy, or at least how I implement things. How do I do my interval training? Do I do it at Lake Starnberg at sunset? So that I somehow bring in my own ideas, my own thing. Then a feeling of competence. I think there's so much a coach can do. Giving someone trust by giving them certain tasks they can master. Or by reflecting back what certain data mean. That was, for example, super important for me, to somehow understand how I should classify my VO2max, where I always thought, wow, it's super low and that's difficult. And Björn, you kind of put it in context for me, classified it for me, and gave me a lot of that feeling of competence. And the third point is social connectedness, so that you feel you're a team, that you work together, pulling in the same direction, working together toward the goal. That's also super cool, when you simply have that connection, that this is such a really important thing. So these three things, and if I look at those three points, it's just fully given for me and that makes up a lot of motivation. Okay. As a coach I always say, I want an educated athlete, meaning the... transfer of knowledge and thereby of competence is always important to me. When I've been working with people for a long time, they roughly know how to do things so that this or that happens. It's somehow saved in me like that, because I also find it exciting to talk about these things. Not everyone likes it, but I also like to elaborate and tell why we're doing this right now and what purpose it has, and I also send studies around here and there, if someone feels like reading that.

Björn: I think it's super important at this point that the athlete also dares to enter this interaction. Because you can only trust someone once you have a certain level of communication. And the athlete has to... approach the coach, trainer, whatever, and in a certain way, I'd say, almost demand it, and ask follow-up questions, and provide enough information so the coach can also respond.

Niclas: I find that a really good point, because as you said before, just doing it and then afterwards, okay, you just did it, that's what I'd do, because I wouldn't dare to constantly be knocking on the door asking something, because then I have the feeling, this is annoying now or maybe too much. And I think it takes a short, hey, it's cool if you ask before, or feel free to ask, or maybe also to say, now it's getting too much for me, or just do it, when it really is driving you crazy. To say, okay, that's enough, just do it, go out and train how it's written. I think that's simply okay too, but so that you have the feedback, am I allowed to, can I do it, yes or no.

Björn: Exactly. I'm really always a fan of the athlete checking in with me three times too many rather than too few, because, and I don't know, in a certain way I always see the job as a service. The athlete is basically paying me to try to make him as good as possible. But I can only do that if I get all the information. And if I ask the athlete how he is, then it's up to the athlete. How much does he share and how much does he tell me? And I find it, sure, there doesn't always need to be a huge text, but just to get a feeling for, okay, how much information do I need to give my coach? And this, I always say when I start working with new athletes, you have to find a certain interplay of, how much information do I give my coach now? And how much does he really need? And I think, simply, if the athlete manages this, and if the athlete, as Björn also said, if he's educated and knows, okay, these are the info he needs so that the training plan fits later and matches the goals, then both sides can only benefit.

Niclas: Yeah, totally. Yeah.

Björn: Very nice. Okay, but now I actually want to do the last question from the coach perspective, because it also already leads a bit into the athlete points. Namely, what can you do when an athlete can't fully exert themselves in a race? So which... What levers or methods can I as a trainer or coach apply, without maybe the athlete having to consciously and actively engage with it themselves?

Niclas: Yeah, I find that a really exciting question too. I can imagine it could come from two directions, why it doesn't work. I think one direction is, fully exerting yourself also simply means having to endure an extreme amount of pain, or it brutally hurts.

Björn: Absolutely. I think every full exertion, whether it's over five minutes or like with you over 28 hours, even 28 hours at some point probably just hurts. And I think with every mountain bike marathon or the cross-country race, whenever it's heading toward full exertion, which we're trying to achieve in a race scenario.

Niclas: Yeah, yeah.

Björn: at some point we're talking about an area where it's just about, how long can I tolerate and endure this pain?

Niclas: Yeah, exactly. And there I'd say it simply takes, first, a really strong commitment. So how strong is my willingness to really give everything. So a really 100-percent determination, because I don't need 99 percent determination. to go into a UTMB and tackle a 170-kilometer run, no, there has to really be, if I already notice I don't have full 100-percent commitment, so I don't go in fully determined, then it's already, whew, it becomes super difficult. I think just wanting something 80 percent and then going for it, per se it doesn't work. So I think, as an athlete I'd ask myself the question, am I really 100 percent determined to call up everything in this race, or also from a coach perspective, I think you can ask that question. How is it? How determined are you? How much do you want this? How high is your motivation too? How attractive is this goal to you? So that you ask about that a bit. And then I think you also need the higher value behind it, why am I doing this? So am I now just focused on the goal, do I just want to arrive, do I want to reach a certain time, or is it somehow larger, or higher? So for example for me with the 28 hours, I also want to find out something about my mind. I know that I really demand a lot from my patients when they have to go into their fears, into their traumas, or like with sleep and so on. That means I also want to really go to my psychological limits in the race, and I want to have an experience with it. That is, so to speak, my higher goal, which at the same time feeds into my commitment. Why do I want this? What's gained when I finish the UTMB now? So, I said this, knowing the why behind it, and also the commitment, asking yourself how committed am I, or, as a coach, asking that too, how high is the commitment. So it can come from the direction that the why is missing, or that I'm not fully determined.

Björn: Okay.

Niclas: Or I think there's another direction it could come from, why I can't call up everything in a race, and that's surely fear. So in the moment, where fear, and also fear of embarrassing myself, of falling behind expectations, of losing it. Simply, even though people know me as Eva Sperger and that's somehow a well-known runner, but now I'm standing at Olympia Park and I'm not fast at all, or not as fast as others might think. That's also somehow very uncomfortable. And so, in the moment when fear comes in, and also fear of embarrassment, it's also from the nervous system that the nervous system responds with withdrawal. In the moment when shame is there, the body already pulls into another position, and we have more of a need to hide. And that can, on a very, very unconscious level, also cause you not to be able to call up and deliver full performance. So simply, coming from neuropsychology, it's not possible. And there I think it will help. So the one question is, how high is my commitment, how attractive is the goal for me in the first place? That's one scale I have, 0 to 10. And the other question I can ask is, 0 to 10, how competent do I feel for this thing? So how high is my sense of competence to actually achieve it? And when someone now says, okay, the attractiveness is 6, that's already difficult somehow. But likewise, when someone says, hey, the attractiveness of finishing a UTMB is 10, but my self-confidence, my sense of competence is hanging at 6. Then I'd also somehow look at, okay, how can you get there, to achieve that, or at least to have talked about, what's the worst case scenario, what's your biggest worry at this point? Yeah. For example also with Björn. I came to you because I know it does me good. And before the last race in South Africa, which was also a 100-kilometer run, I said, listen, Björn, I'm telling you my biggest fears now. I'm telling you, I already know exactly what to mentally expect and what will probably go through my head again. I'm just going to say it all out loud. Just to have said it out loud. To have named it beforehand, somehow, to make it more tangible.

Björn: Okay, so would you actually then also encourage the athlete to the point of saying, okay, I also talk with my coach, my cycling coach, about the fears I have, so that he can maybe take them away through performance data, maybe also through training sessions, when the athlete is afraid, hey, I won't manage this or that amount, or cycling for this or that long, you can do training sessions of that length, you can do training sessions that maybe give you the confidence to go in that direction. And with the question of commitment, that you maybe also have someone to talk to about your commitment, and then maybe either pick a different race, or simply set up a goal where he sees the commitment behind it.

Niclas: Yeah, I think if the commitment isn't there, it becomes difficult. So the commitment has to come from somewhere from the athlete. So I can look at whether I can talk about it somewhere, or whether you can somehow get there, but it has to simply come from yourself. And it could also be that for example, I had 100 percent commitment for 28 hours, which is so crazy. But one hour of full exertion, if you'd ask me what's the commitment, then I'd build up pressure again. Yeah. No idea how I'd get myself there. I don't know. Somehow I don't have the motivation. It sounds crazy. I'm sometimes a bit mean, and Eva has already felt it.

Björn: I think you're more than sometimes mean, Björn. That I see in the numbers that there's much more in there. And with Eva's sport you can do that very nicely. With marathons too, also mountain bike marathon, that there are points in the race where I know, there it'll get tough. And that you, so to speak, plant a thought in the athlete's mind, when you're at that point, please think of this training. Usually it then runs on autopilot. And that's very positive, that I really write a screenplay for a race. In the mountain bike marathon I do it more often, at a world championship. That gives people, A, self-confidence, and B, when the situation actually does occur, which it sometimes does, then it helps them. Incredibly, yes. I mean, they run, when you see the profiles, I know where it gets nasty and where it doesn't, and you can set them up for it, maybe even... rebuild things in training, and I have the feeling, at least I was also an athlete once, it always gave me a huge amount to know how does this hurt, and when does it hurt. And going in with those thoughts, and not being surprised, oh god, why are they suddenly going so fast, I'm not used to that, mentally I'm already so overwhelmed that my body also immediately blocks.

Niclas: Yeah, that's actually also the case. So one of the sessions I always come back to is this 12-minute switch between, I still call it zone 4 and zone 5, so very hard, super hard, switching back and forth. And that actually comes back to me again and again, because it's just, you think, hey, I'm already fully exerted and now I'm supposed to do another minute of, somehow... VO2max, how is that supposed to work? But you somehow manage it. And actually, this training session, it comes back to me again and again, that's true. So I know what you mean, that you simply have certain sessions that you come back to again and again. Or you once gave me, it was a beautiful sunny day, I was in Innsbruck, and you scheduled a training for me, eight hours that then became nine. And it was then, I was in Innsbruck on the sunny day, I didn't train, and then in the evening back to Garmisch, and it was really foggy, you could barely see a meter. And then I was supposed to run eight hours into the night. Alone, up there in the Zugspitze area, where no one is, two in the morning. It was brutally slippery. You really couldn't see far with the headlamp. And then you run completely alone into it. Through this cirque, where simply, yeah, no one lasts. And the terrain is ridiculously hard. And yeah, sure, it somehow sticks in your memory. Yeah, sure, you think back to it. Those are things that simply give you super much self-confidence. And such things, I find that really cool too. So I also had to, or I'm still finding my way into this sport. And when Eva told me the first time, that you're sometimes out alone for a few hours, somewhere in the mountains, in the jungle. At night, on the glacier, during hail. Yeah, exactly. At the limit, yeah, so hunger, thirst, and already a bit of panic, and then on top of that you're out at night. Then you also have to put together a bit of a light, mental toolkit. That is, you run for eight hours in the fog around the Zugspitze. Yeah, I like that. You have to work a bit more creatively there. It's fun. Yeah, now we're on the topic of full exertion. And I have to think now where we actually came from.

Björn: Right, so I would have actually led into the next question a bit. Mhm. What strategies do you have for enduring pain longer during a race? Because we're going in the direction of full exertion there. And I mean, probably everyone knows the situation, you're running behind someone, or in cycling, you're sitting on someone's wheel, and they're going very fast up the climb the whole time, and it's the second-to-last climb, and you know, okay, you have to go over it one more time, and it already hurts a lot, and you have to go up again. How do you, or do you have strategies on how to better deal with this pain, and also the voices, and also the doubts that might come up, and simply, I'd say, optimally just not start riding slower, but simply try to endure these pains even longer?

Niclas: Yeah, so I think fundamentally you have to differentiate, which form of pain. So if I have a pain that could potentially become a stress fracture, then it would be pretty good to listen to it. So of course, I think you already have a feel for, can I really just set this pain aside, because on the mountain, the muscles burn. Yeah, nothing's going to break there. So I can fully go into the pain. But I think it also takes this long-term thinking. What comes out of this in the long term? And on the mountain, if I stick with it, I think it's also pretty good to somehow have the goal moment in mind. So how would I feel if I let off here? Or how would I feel then? So I think that's the one thing, that I simply have a vision in mind. The other thing, I think, is that beforehand I 100 percent prepare for, this will come. That's certain. So it's simply part of the race. It belongs to it, and yeah, I know, it'll get brutally hard at this point and well, now we're back to training, that I also know this from training, that I've already experienced it, that I can somewhere think back to... Maybe also a moment where I especially succeeded, or have some kind of visualization in mind. For example, I actually once with a triathlete, we were in a group, cycling, and we did a mountain sprint. And one of them had just qualified for Ironman, and I was simply on his wheel. I locked in. Just like that. I didn't want to let go, I didn't let go, and that's my image, whenever it gets super hard right now, I always imagine this moment, because I just had exactly this feeling, okay, I'm simply not going to let this wheel go, and I want to experience that moment when he turns around and is totally astonished that I stuck on the back and nobody else. For me that's joy, fun, competence, and it's simply such a strong image. And I actually also train that again and again. So that you really have a toughness in the training. That will be the case anyway, because you also plan it in. That I in that moment also imagine the race and visualize it and know, okay, this will come, this will get that hard. And that I then somehow know, which image do I call up. Or maybe I once saw a Tour de France sprint or something, a final moment that gives me so much. which I can bring to mind. So really work with visualization. And yeah, exactly, simply this, can I still accept the pain now, and let it be there, perceive it for this moment at the finish.

Björn: Okay. I think this consciously realizing beforehand, okay, this will hurt this much, I think that definitely always makes sense, that you maybe become a bit more honest with yourself in such a plan. Okay, it was pretty certain, this climb will hurt like hell, because some idiot will be climbing fast again. And then basically the next point, that you say, prepare an image beforehand, where you know, that gives me strength, gives me energy. Maybe you've already experienced it in training, laid it out, and know, okay, that also got me through this or that training, and I can apply it again here.

Niclas: A song for that matter, or something. So somehow, where I notice, that gives me a lot of strength, exactly. And earlier you also said, in the question, what do I do now when these kinds of negative thoughts go through my head? And that's also a cool question and an exciting question, because I think these negative thoughts we have in such a moment, we're often used to engaging with the content so strongly, right? That I, if I have self-doubt, I'd think, okay, then I also somehow have to work on my self-doubt. But I think that very much of our emotions are actually physiology. So that I can read from it, what heart rate zone I'm in. I can do that quite reliably. I know, when the extent of my self-hate or self-doubt, or hatred toward the race, and I really want this, so I'll never do this again, it just tells me how high up I am in heart rate in a race. I always hate my fellow competitors, and that's always helped me a lot. I said, if you hurt me, I'll hurt you even more. That's how I raced super well. So somehow not taking your own thoughts personally, don't take it personally, I like to say there, yeah. the content of my thoughts is really irrelevant right now, it's just, the thoughts are more or less unpleasant, and okay, then I can look at, if I'm in a very long race, then I'd actually want to reduce my pulse, so I feel better again, because I don't want to blow up, or just for a moment where it's a very short race, that I say, okay, yeah, these are my companions, my little monsters, right, and the more monsters, the more negative thoughts, the better I'm actually riding right now. So I'd almost reinterpret it, I'd almost reframe it actually. Yeah. Okay. I'm glad you say that, because I already thought, when you mentioned visualization, I totally go along with that, but I've always been such a big negative thinker in races. And I really could wonderfully channel the hate I had on the bike, on myself or on everyone around me, onto the pedals. It worked super well. Yeah. Yeah, so simply acceptance that it's just like this now, and engaging as little as possible with these thoughts. The silly thing you can do is, somehow put something up against it, or try to think positively for example, that's scientifically not sensible. Right, thinking positively helps when you're thinking positively anyway, and when you're not thinking positively right now, then it tends to demotivate you more.

Björn: Exciting. Accept the situation, and optimally prepare for it beforehand, and try to prepare something beforehand, where you know, okay, when the situation comes where it gets hard, then I'll think of this, because I know when I think of this, I'll also manage.

Niclas: Yeah, exactly. And simply, what I really do, because with me it's hours upon hours. So the mind has tremendous time to think. Sure, 28 hours, when you consider when do you get bored on a plane, it's really long. And of course a lot goes through your head there. And of course also the question, why am I doing this? And there, I actually write it down. I have a list, probably four pages, of all my thoughts, of all my usual suspects that come up in between. And it's really like this, then I say to them, oh yeah, okay, oh you, hello, come along, join me as long as you want. And yeah, maybe at some point it'll be different again. So almost a bit like a welcome on board. Nice that you're coming along for the journey.

Björn: So really, you basically wrote a list, where your, I'd say, negative thoughts that come up, that might make you doubt or that bother you, you basically became aware of through old races, so okay, always after, I don't know, hour six, it always gets hard the first time, then this thought loves to come, that might then try to make me doubt, and you prepare yourself beforehand, you wrote this list for yourself. And you know then in the race, okay, I know this one will come. And when it comes, then you talk to it, you accept it.

Niclas: Exactly. Exactly like that. And that sounds so terribly simple. But in that moment it's really doable. So that's called defusion. Fusion would mean, I fully enter the thought. Why am I doing these ultras? Why am I spending my entire vacation here? With such races, I'm mad. Such things come up gladly in the race of course. I can gladly make thoughts about that, outside of the race. But in the race I should probably rather use my energy for something else. Those are such thoughts. I can laugh about it a bit now, but in that moment it can really catch you. So sometimes something comes up that's maybe a bit new or unknown. And I sit down afterwards and write a list, so what was good in the race, or what could be improved, and also look at to what extent I managed that. Yeah, or okay, then I notice, now... I'm thinking specifically of one race where this went really badly for me, where my thoughts really continuously worked on me, and where I really engaged with the content like that. And that it now succeeds better is also a result of me really having documented it. And I looked at, how did that intervene in my actions, then I didn't eat and drink well anymore, which makes it even worse. And this process of failing, so taking it on, writing it down, and afterwards also looking, did it really succeed, could I recognize it in the moment, could I let it go, correct it. Could I go into this defusion? So defusion, okay, I have my thoughts along for the ride, but I don't engage with the content. Did that really happen? Did it really succeed? I find this super exciting right now. Then maybe it succeeds for one, two races and then the next, then you think, oh now cool, now I've got it, it doesn't happen to me. At the UTMB it actually didn't happen to me anymore. That was really, I prepared so well for it that in the moment when it came, it was really, ha, cool. Here it comes again. Now this topic comes up again. And then it really wasn't a problem anymore. I was doing well mentally the whole race. Okay, wild.

Björn: That has a lot to do with mindfulness, if I understand correctly. So that you really try, exactly... I'll just call it listening to the voice in your head, what it's trying to tell you. So you have to be aware, I think, that when you're cycling up a mountain like that and it hurts, and then this voice always comes, like, yeah, why are you doing this? It's nonsense. Why are you hurting yourself this way? That this is, basically, also just a voice in your head that... that you, if you're really present, can basically block out and switch off, if I'm understanding correctly. And you basically train that beforehand by going and, after every race, writing down these thoughts that come up during the race, and really making yourself aware of them. So reflecting on, which thoughts did I have during the race? What's this voice in my head saying? And why am I starting to doubt? And then you basically enter into exchange with... yourself, what happens?

Niclas: In one place, yeah, I'd sign off on everything, only at one point I have to turn it around into the opposite. You said, there I can switch it off. And I wouldn't try that. So we don't have our thoughts under our control. So even if I've written it down ever so thoroughly, I wouldn't manage to switch the thoughts off there. Maybe they'll be gone as a result. Maybe they won't be present anymore. But it could also be, through physiological processes, through stress I'm having right now, or simply deficits that somehow arise, that my thoughts really, really continuously work on me. And it's not so much about whether I now let them go a bit as a result, or whether they totally bombard me. So mindfulness, you said, yeah, because mindfulness means acceptance of what I don't have within my power. I don't have my thoughts under my power, not completely. I can try to do a bit about it, but ultimately I don't have it in my power. But I can direct my focus toward what's essential now. On the mountain, if I have a mountain sprint, then I can direct my focus consciously toward where I want my focus to be. And I accept, it's bombarding me more or less right now. I basically don't engage with it so much.

Björn: Wild. Really beautiful thought. Yeah, already if I reflect, going into races, to even think afterwards about which thoughts were occupying me, to write them down, and basically take that into the next race as a tool, I would have never come up with that, and I find it really exciting that you can approach it like that. But of course it makes complete sense, because in the end it's just the same, you prepare for this, you look at the elevation profile, how many kilometers are coming, how many meters of elevation are coming, so you basically prepare for the demands of the race. But the mental aspect is just as much part of it. You also have to prepare for, what do your thoughts want from you? Or what's playing out in your head? And that's exactly what you're doing with this.

Niclas: Yeah, if I can add something to this. Also things like, at the beginning of the race, when I, the UTMB starts relatively fast. But that means, if at the beginning of a 28-hour race I overdo it too much, so too fast, this will surely be the case in a cycling race too, that there are things where I actually, well, it would be embarrassing now if I didn't go along with it. That would be somehow uncomfortable, or I'm so motivated that I really feel like somehow overdoing it. And those, I find, are also things you can prepare for. So that I already know beforehand, if at the beginning I have this much motivation, what do I do with it? So also the preparation for these mental aspects, that even motivation, or I overtook someone now, can also lead to, I'll overdo the next half hour in motivation. So also to reflect on this, and okay, hey, what do I do with this? What is actually waiting for me on the mental level? Or if I'm now falling behind my goal, so I've set myself a goal that I want to be at station X at such-and-such time. And my goal would be, I don't know, to finish the UTMB faster than 28 hours, and I've set myself 27 hours. But now something else comes up, that I also prepare for this, so I got overtaken, I'm falling behind my expectations, my A-goal is far away. What does this do to me internally right now? How am I doing? And how do I manage to deal with this state again? Those are all things that happen. And we sometimes believe, mental strength is, I don't have that anymore. That I'm somehow stronger, tougher, that it doesn't happen to me anymore. But mental strength consists of me really being able to totally prepare for, that I... that I can deal well with what comes up. So that I have skills to recognize it, and so to speak, to get back into committed action, so into sensible, focused action. Okay.

Björn: Right now I'd most like to grab a sheet of paper, sit down, and think about, which thoughts did I have in my last race.

Niclas: Isn't that nice.

Björn: Very, very cool. Exciting. I think with that we've definitely already ticked off the race-related questions pretty well. I'd personally be very interested in, how do you, or how do you try to, or take away the performance pressure? So I talked with a friend of mine, who also races, about this, that most people set themselves some kind of race goal, or... normally you want to go into a race and want to win. But what do you do now, if this performance pressure tips into the negative, you fall into fear, and then because of the fear you can't maybe call up your performance? So how do you deal with this pressure, and potentially also external pressure, and negative pressure, and then also fears? So which strategies are there?

Niclas: Yeah, so I'd say, I look for races that put pressure on me and scare me. So if I notice I don't have enough fear before a race, then I'd look, is there one that scares me more. Yeah. Awesome. I think fear and pressure also means, I'm developing. And that's actually a state I want to have. And I'd basically turn it around. I wouldn't perceive it as something bad, but yeah sure, hey, so one of the races that scared me most was, there's another 170-kilometer run, it's on Réunion. It's called the Diagonale des Fous, so the Diagonal of the Mad. And for the French it's really a household name, also for those who aren't trail runners. It goes through the jungle, it's 40 degrees, the course is so difficult that you really have risk of falling.

Björn: That sounds very cool.

Niclas: It's really a beast. Right. And there I noticed, okay, if I put that in front of my nose now, then I'm already occupied with it for three quarters of a year, really being afraid of it. And cool. Yeah, and then you really start pulling out all the stops, really preparing for it. And also right before the race, really, this fear I find really practical, because then it... also brings me to go through all the eventualities again. What else could happen? What if the headlamp actually fails? Or what if this, or what if that, or which? So all these what-ifs. What do I do then? And I also have a list for this. To go through all these things that can happen, and actually to say to my fear, hey, cool, thanks. You really make me think. I wouldn't do that otherwise. And then, what are the solutions for it? So I think pressure and fear belong to it, right? You also couldn't imagine anyone at a world championship who says, I don't have pressure and no fear. So just to say, yeah, that's excitement and so, that's part of the program. So it's unrealistic not to have that.

Björn: So use fear to question yourself, what could happen, write a list for yourself, and then just try to answer rationally, okay, what happens if the headlamp fails and so on?

Niclas: Exactly. And also a brief little anecdote about the world champions I've worked with or who became world champions. Those are actually the ones who are the most uncool when you're alone with them in the room. Yeah, those are the ones who are panicking, who ask, how many grams, Björn, should I eat this again, should I do a warmup here, pure blank panic. But at the starting line you can't tell. They continuously engage with these things, but also try to solve them. So really, as you said, what happens, what do I do then? and not falling into panic, oh god, what happens, then it's all, the thing is done, then I couldn't do anything anymore, but still thinking of a solution. And then on race day I experience them standing at the starting line and having sorted themselves out, because they simply know, I have this list in my head. And I've experienced athletes melting in my hands before the Olympic Games. And on day X they're just there. And the practical thing, or from physiology too, fear is designed for either fighting or fleeing. So as long as you stand still, it's very unpleasant, because the oxygen that's more in the blood, dizziness, all these things, the racing heart, that's very, very silly to have when standing still. But in the moment when the starting shot goes off, that's exactly what I need it for. That means it's also worked through with that. And the only place where I'd now see, okay, if it becomes an absolute blockage, so if you notice, okay, it's not going from the starting shot, I'm only really fit and can call up performance that I otherwise can never call up, but if it really... becomes a blockage, also if it's already days before, then I'd maybe work with a kind of breathing technique. So that with breathing you can very, very effectively intervene in the stress system. So that I extend the exhalation. Björn, you asked me, at the Olympics it was, I think, with an athlete who was dealing with fear, there's an app called Breathing Zone. And it gives a breathing rhythm, it simply intervenes in your stress system. So exactly, but I'd really rather only use it with myself, only when it's days before and I don't want the body to already be consuming so much the whole time. So that I bring myself down a bit there, and I'm actually happy when I have fear before a race. I think, good, that's a good sign, my body is functioning, it's providing everything I have. Can I add one more thing? I recently had a show jumper with me, who just went to competitions. And so in mental training and so on, the sentence came up, to simultaneously make it the most important thing in the world and the most unimportant thing in the world. So, right? I'm significant, says the dust speck. There's a comic, where someone stands and looks up at the starry sky and says, I'm important, says the dust speck. And I always picture this image, because we take ourselves so unbelievably seriously, how important this run is now. And honestly, nobody gives a damn. Nobody cares. Even the people who act as if it really interests them, in the end they don't really care that much maybe. And so, that you sort it in again for yourself, that you simultaneously allow it, that you really super hold onto it, and at the same time also somehow take it with humor and relativize it and say, okay, in my case, every animal runs faster than humans. So even if I'm a bit faster, every animal will be rolling on the floor laughing. And in the end also a gratitude for what has already happened. So when I'm now at a world championship, at the Olympics, or somewhere at the start as an ultra-runner, then it's basically like the last dot on a huge iceberg, that this even... what all went well already, how many years of training, what all has flowed into this, what have I already achieved that no one can take from me, in terms of physical fitness, of experiences. In training moments. So I basically already have so much on the credit side of the iceberg, that of course it's cool if the dot on top of the i is there now. But I don't actually lose everything as a result. That's also often such a thought of mine. Yeah, as a trainer I can totally relate to that too, with fear. Because I also always have fear when I send my athletes to races, especially to important races, and many, many weeks before, months. I look at the competition and think, oh, they're so good, and then I look at what they're doing, and how can I prepare them for it, the others and the course, and so on, and then I run myself in circles with how I can still do something, and still do something better. And I'm also pursued by this fear, and for weeks before such a race I'm really, I wouldn't say with my nerves down to my feet, but it does occupy me. And on such a race day I'm, that's off, nothing works there. And the other thought that you had, how seriously do you take yourself? Of course I also always try that. Of course I don't succeed that well, but I at least try to convey it to my kids, when they come to school too late in the morning. I always say, you can tell your teachers, the universe still keeps serving, even if I'm one minute late, nothing happens. Björn, maybe there, loving firmness would be a strategy. That's also mostly on me. Maybe loving firmness toward yourself would be a thing for once. Yeah, I'm strict sometimes.

Björn: Very nice. Okay. Björn, do you have one of the questions you definitely still want to discuss? Well, I'd just like to throw something in briefly. First of all, what I notice when the three of us are together, and it's maybe also because my athletes are always there too, is that I'm always a bystander and listen much more than I'm used to, because I usually talk more, I feel. So I'm soaking it up right now, and find it exciting, because a picture is coming together, of course, and I'm also receiving knowledge that I wouldn't otherwise get, and I get to know the person even better. And Eva and I, we talk a lot and for a long time already, but there are always exciting aspects again, also now here simply listening and hearing and seeing you both in interaction. So I find that great. And there are so many things, especially when I listen to other podcasts, also in this area, then I think, first of all, the questions were great, yeah, I liked that. And it's so that I, even I, take so much away as a coach and also as a former athlete, significantly more than any positive affirmations and this and that, what you usually hear, this actually went significantly deeper. And I enjoyed it so much, that I actually would still like to push in a second episode sometime this year. Because I think this topic can be tackled considerably more coolly, because there are still a couple more things. And I also think, there are many listeners who definitely still have questions. And I'd actually like to include that. I'd say. We really have quite a few questions left, we won't be able to plow through. But I'd like to do a follow-up on it. Definitely. Even alone, I still have two questions on the list that also interest me from a personal perspective. I've put those at the back so far, but the two that occupy me the most, for example, or have occupied me in the past, are definitely still open. But definitely let's do a second episode on it. I think at hour 15, that's definitely enough for those.

Niclas: Yeah. Very nice. This is an episode for ultra-runners out on their four-hour run. Or like the Zeit podcast, which is then stopped at some point when some board falls. Everything's said. Exactly. Cool. Yeah, so thanks a lot for the questions. I really enjoyed engaging with them.

Björn: Yeah, thanks also from my side. Then there's another exciting guest. New development, we're now always inviting people, because Niclas said I've become too boring. But I have... I was at a bike fitting today, and during it I thought of new topics that are now going on our list, that we can definitely tackle together, or also with a guest. Yeah, so I also already have a topic I absolutely want to do. Namely, there are incredibly many cookbooks for... for cycling. And I want to look at all of them and check them out, and also discuss them with my good buddy Martin Kühn, who's a chef and has also worked in Michelin-star kitchens. And review them a bit. And I also absolutely want to invite a chef. Either the performance chef from Girona or Hannah Grant from Denmark or something, and we'll do that.

Niclas: You know what's super funny? I also listen to your podcast, and I always loved the outro, when Niclas gets slightly nervous when you tell something about comics or some absurd series, and I hear Niclas, the tension rising, and now it's such a moment again.

Björn: Always the thought, okay, now we're going to wander a bit, but, another idea, Sebastian, so from Afasteryou, Sebastian Schluricke, said... Afasteryou. Afasteryou, sorry, Afasteryou, oh god. He said we should interview my father-in-law too. He'd like to ask the interview questions, though, because he says, we also have an educational mission. And he says, every two months we have to bring in someone from outside who has nothing to do with cycling, but somehow educates us. And maybe we'll bring in a father-in-law sometime. But then it'll only be about astrophysics.

Niclas: Oh yes, that's an exciting idea. But I think it can get really exciting, because there you can also transfer a lot to normal... life. I'm reading a book right now, because I was also told by someone that I should always give a book recommendation of books I'm currently reading. And now next to me this book here by Richard Hart, Brad, it's about 300 pages, it's just about sourdough bread. It's really well written, it's totally great, recommended for people who want to learn to bake. And the other book I'm also currently... Training control, training planning, when you have topics like that... The Food Lab, mega book, it's almost 1000 pages. It's, well, it's a scientist who wrote it. He's a biochemist, then he became a chef, and he really engages with everything. Cooking times, what happens, how proteins solidify at different temperatures. Totally caught me, so mega. You can see I'm on a different wavelength right now. My brain needs... I don't know how Niclas is reacting now when he hears this. He's trying to somehow hold onto the chair and strike all the poses. It seems slightly restless. Yeah. Right, so I'm done. The book presentation, you'll have to live with that now.

Björn: All good, all good. I read unfortunately not that much. But I can maybe share some new music I discovered in training. Because actually I also got a lot of feedback on the music episode, that the songs are good. Your current favorite song? Right now? Yeah, what do you always listen to during training? In training I'm still stuck on DJ Nicholas Julian, and just now through Girona, again, Electric Callboy. Okay, I have to listen to that. So absolute favorite, I'm really listening to on continuous loop right now, is Chicago, that's the song, by Sufjan Stevens. Mega song, I can only recommend it. Good vibes, super singer-songwriter, dreamy. Really, really good. Yeah, Eva? Okay. Oh, white paper.

Niclas: Wow, I actually listen exclusively to drum and bass. Namely during interval training on the roller, which is now standing here next to me, as you can see, that good thing. And there's no single song, rather it's simply such remixes. And yeah, right.

Björn: Okay, it goes a bit in my direction with techno too. There it's also mostly not single songs, but somehow a whole set that's played or something. Good. Thanks a lot. Very nice. Eva, thanks a lot. I definitely learned a lot.

Niclas: Nice. I'm glad. Until next time. Have a nice evening.

Björn: Thank you. Ciao, ciao.