S'entraîner comme une équipe de record du monde — Comment ça marche ?

Niclas: Welcome to the Afasteryou Podcast, where it's all about endurance sports and training. Sebastian Schluricke, Björn Kafka, and Niclas Ranker bring you valuable tips and insights to help take your performance to the next level. Racing isn't something pleasant. Racing hurts. Winning often comes down to very small differences. If you're riding up front and you have the feeling, ah cool, you've got the others under control, then it feels less painful. Then you press a bit harder and stay longer at threshold, or just below threshold, where others are at tempo... Good morning, welcome to a new episode of the Afasteryou Podcast. That's been over a month now, Björn, hi.

Björn: Morning, yeah, some time has passed, but that's how it is.

Niclas: Yeah, I was on the road, you were on the road, lots happening. Right — we can't talk about a lot of it yet, but it's coming. First basic question, how are you? Good. All super. Very nice. Okay. Today I've basically brought a summary of an analysis where they looked at what the Australians did in the 4000m team pursuit to set the world record in 2018, 3:49.8. Team pursuit — 4000m, two teams start against each other on the track, should mention. Four or five riders? Four. And a fifth — they write five riders here, but there's always a reserve rider. I also know my way around the track. You know your way around, and you were also involved in various successes. I'll just present the whole thing and you jump in and give us your knowledge. As a starting point, they established pretty clearly — the main training went basically over 1 to 4-minute power. The goal was to prepare the riders to ride the 4000m as fast as possible, 3:49 in this case. The specific bike training was to ignite the highest possible 1-to-4-minute power. You immediately see — okay, you need an extremely strong aerobic base. You know that from the Afasteryou test too, to ride 4 minutes fast. We use that to calculate VO2max. You just need a huge engine, and that's the foundation. What the researchers then looked at were the nine months of training the Australians, the five guys, had before the competition. And in those nine months they averaged 15 hours of training per week. The range was 7 to 26 hours. I'd assume 7 hours was a high taper week. 26 hours are the high-volume weeks where probably only base was ridden. Then we had an intensity distribution that was pyramidal — 70% low intensity, 22% moderate intensity, 8% high intensity. Basically what we see across almost the entire WorldTour and actually the whole pro scene. At the high training volume — 15 hours average isn't the very highest, but already solid training — you don't have to do much more than 70 percent. In this case 30% at higher intensities and 70% at low intensity. I think if you look at the top triathletes in the world, they're even at 80/20 or 90/10. Depends on the rider. The higher the volume, the higher the low-intensity share goes. What I found interesting — they had only one to four hours per week on the track. The rest was really road, ergometer or strength training. Is that normal, so little track training?

Björn: Yeah, actually. You collect a lot of base, you don't hang around so much on the track. I'd say track time is always concentrated.

Niclas: So that's used basically for technique drills — practicing the switches, who goes out when.

Björn: Yeah, in Germany it's — there are always track training camps, multiple times a year, so relatively often. Six, seven, eight times, several weeks long, especially before important races, two weeks before they're basically only on the track, practicing switches and so on. Otherwise they're mainly on the road. Really just on the track practicing switches and such. But otherwise mainly on the road.

Niclas: I actually would've thought they ride more on the track — also to ride intervals targeted on the track, because I thought — okay, with the gearing, this hard acceleration, because they do a standing start, all that stuff, that there'd be even more on the track. I would've thought they ride at least the intensities on the track to have that specificity.

Björn: There are definitely different approaches, but you just need an incredibly high volume to generate the VO2max you want and also lactate production. And you don't necessarily have to constantly dismount at the track.

Niclas: Okay, okay. They continue — strength training, 1 to 3 hours per week. In this case the main exercises were squats, deadlifts, leg press, plyometrics. They worked in a max strength range of 3 to 5 reps. With relatively long rest intervals, 2 to 3 minutes. Heat training, really interesting — 1 to 3 hours per week. And mainly not to improve heat tolerance, but above all aerobic capacity, blood volume, and metabolic stress without mechanical load. And they kept it going across all nine months. And that's something that's coming more and more, but at least at first — the Norwegian studies you saw at the start were mainly, okay, we do it classically as a block. So five weeks heat training, almost only base, a few intensities, but first just this block. Above all we do it before the A-races. And here it's going toward — they pull it through for nine months. That's nasty.

Björn: Yeah, I mean — someone like Olli Matthais had, I think, endless. I think he pulled heat training through the whole year. Combined with altitude. Yeah. If you don't go to altitude much, it definitely makes sense. You don't have to do it five times every day or every week. Maybe three times is enough. I'd claim — if we're talking hemoglobin and such — if you're at altitude and it happens to be super hot where you are, you might even have crazier effects on hemoglobin. At least from what I've seen measurement-wise. So if you're somewhere like Livigno and it's constantly 30 degrees and you ride around — then you definitely have a crazy value afterwards.

Niclas: The last thing I read about it was at least that most and the best adaptations you actually get when you just do a targeted altitude block and afterwards, when you come out of altitude, just put the heat block on top. And especially maintain — that's the point. Right — because this combination didn't actually bring the crazier or better effects than pure altitude then heat. They recently tested whether it brings something to combine altitude and heat. The stress was probably just too high, and so the adaptation wasn't good anymore. Not there anymore. Or training wrong. Or training wrong. That's always the funny thing about these studies. The groups are just always so small.

Björn: Yeah right. And if they then also do intervals and then heat training on top, at altitude, at some point you just crash.

Niclas: Good — first the practical takeaway from the world record attempt. Definitely a lot of aero work, even though they were basically only going for 4 minutes. Really, as said, 70% low intensity. Below LT1, so we're talking 0.8 to 1.3 mmol — really very relaxed riding. 22% moderate, 8% high. Pyramidal instead of polarized. Basically what we see across the whole WorldTour. So probably just the high-intensity sessions deliver the specificity. As discussed — 1 to 4 minutes — and the rest was really basically what the rest of the WorldTour does to be maximally performant. And you see that more and more — the differences between sports really aren't that big anymore. People by now know pretty well what works to make athletes maximally performant. It's always the same point — okay, you first need a huge VO2max to be somewhere in any endurance sport. Smart complementary training — heat and strength training to create the specific adaptations, and very little actual track time. But extremely high quality, they write. And that speaks to what the Germans do on the track — really targeted camps working on specific points. And otherwise actually normal road cycling training, I'd say.

Björn: Yeah, you'd have to invite a real track coach. I'm not that deep in it. Sven Meyer or some other track coach. Everyone has their own philosophy of how to structure it. I can only speak about the track riders I work with, and there I always look pretty specifically — what's the role. The lead-out rider does something different than the person leading and then maybe riding a long pull or a short pull. Then of course you have these abnormal torques at the start. Compensate with strength training. Or maybe also with torque training in general. But there too, I'd say, the final word isn't spoken. The research is — how should I say — divided. Right. I think what we need is a high VO2max and high torque. That has to be handled. That's the foundation plus a high glycolytic rate that feeds into VO2max. And look — if they hammer under 4 minutes, you can think — if they have a CdA of, say, 19, 18, they ride 600 watts. If you ride 42, if you ride 62, let's say, and a 19 CdA, you ride 600 watts.

Niclas: What would you say — how big is the difference between the rider who — you mean 600 watts up front in the lead. Meaning behind I have to ride 500?

Björn: Yeah, how much saving do we have in the back? What percent? Phew, that's on the track.

Niclas: Yeah, that's why — around 20% behind. 500, 480.

Björn: Right. Meaning — that's a pleasant break. Yeah, say they weigh 80 kilos.

Niclas: I'll quickly build a track rider here. I think average weight was 80 kilos plus/minus two.

Björn: Yeah look. And then they have, say, a 78 VO2max. Or say, not even such a great economy. Then they ride 560 watts over five minutes.

Niclas: That's actually — in that sense — not that crazy. They mainly need to get a great CdA value, that's the most important.

Björn: Right — I think that's what you — and this high torque at the start, they have to pull off acceleration really fast. Right. That'd be — look, at 80 kilos and you press 560 watts, we have a compound score of 3920. That's solid.

Niclas: Yeah but — what I was saying — I can only speak for myself, and I have two other athletes with relatively high wattages. 560 isn't completely bananas. Look, my best this year was 550 or 556. Niclas, get on the track.

Björn: Just have to hold a 19 CdA.

Niclas: Right, I think that's what comes in. I ride that — I don't ride it from a standing start where I have to accelerate the whole thing up. Plus, I can ride it in upright position. Ride it in aero — basically standing start is not in aero position, but still with narrow bars. And then lie in aero position and crank it. I can't even imagine. Anyone who just lies on their road bike — just get your road bike, lie with your forearms on the bars. That feels completely different. And then ride your 4-minute best. So imagine you want to ride 4 minutes all-out. And that in aero position, and pedal the first — I don't know, do you know roughly how much more you have to press at the start to accelerate the big gear?

Björn: Well — if you think, I don't know how many Newton-meters they press there, but that's heavy, heavy, heavy. They have huge chainrings. 60? Yeah, oversize. That's first the decisive thing.

Niclas: The musculature first has to handle that. Say — shift into the heaviest gear, a 15-second high-torque sprint, and then ride your 4-minute best in aero position.

Björn: We're always in different muscle-fiber recruitment regions, and that makes the whole thing super exciting. At the start we have very high torque, it's like a U-curve — high torque means many fast muscle fibers. Then we briefly drop because we hit speed. Hennemann's principle comes back. There we're briefly with the slow fibers, and then at some point cadence goes super high. Meaning we're using lots of fast muscle fibers again. That's what makes the whole thing super exciting — you have a good mix of high glycolytic power and high VO2max. Niclas, next time I'll prep better. You have to say for this podcast — Niclas put a minute before we started —

Niclas: Put it down and said — I want to talk about that. Yeah, listen. I think that's exactly right, because listen, now comes the turn. This is basically what the guys did to get this world record. Now the question is — what can we learn from it? As we just said, the specificity on the track to ride a 4000m world record is extremely high. None of us has to accelerate a 60 chainring from zero, and none of us rides around in TT position the whole time — or very few of us. So I actually find it interesting — okay, if you look at it, what can we as normal people learn from it? And basically what the author of the article also did is — okay, you derived a training model and said, okay — what's interesting — we look at how can we reproduce this performance capability to other things. So the training model the guys used — what can we learn from it and basically also do better. He applied the Physiological Model of Sports Performance. It goes — we basically start with, how does the whole thing work? Analysis of the race demands. Which systems are involved? 80% aerobic, sure. It first goes through VO2max, as we just said. High power output, the fourth factor VO2max, resistance, and neuromuscular efficiency. Meaning — okay, what do you have to do first? You have to match your race demands. Point 2 — determine the physiological fatigue mechanisms. What limits performance in the race? In this case, oxygen transport, lactate accumulation, temperature, neuromuscular fatigue. Point 3 — which systems have to be improved. Which adaptations delay fatigue? In this case, for example, strength training built in to delay fatigue, and also to be able to accelerate the whole thing. And of course higher VO2max for higher 4-minute wattages. Selection of appropriate training methods. Meaning — if I know, okay, these are the points limiting me — I can go from there and say, okay, then we have to train this and that. Methods for relevant systems — in this case for example lots of base for O2 transport and mitochondrial density, targeted HIT sessions, strength training for mechanical efficiency, heat training to expand blood volume and in turn better VO2max. And then the last step would basically be periodization, adaptation in micro-, meso- and macro-cycles without overloading — optimally we want, as you've said, first lay a good foundation and work up step by step, so the whole construct doesn't collapse. And I found that fit super well with what I recently started thinking about myself. I, as you also recommended, quickly became clear — okay, this is cool. I know a lot of it already, but his own book goes even deeper. But especially I noticed that — even with the background I have — I looked at how the coaches I've worked with have always worked. And many were — for example, my last employer, don't have to name — they worked very simply just on this Mader principle. Meaning they have other points the Mader system doesn't cover at all, doesn't consider. And I find that exciting — you have to consider, next to this training model — so the training model used in this review went very much on — okay, what weakness do I have and how do I train from there? But I find, if you have a youth rider for example, you can't really start with — he should ride road. Maybe he won't ride road eventually, and then you train him in one direction and it doesn't work at all. And that's why my approach was — okay, how do I make a fundamental training model, how do I basically build up my toolkit to train a rider as well as possible? Right, and I'd have set the whole thing up so that the foundation first is — clear — metabolism, so I'd say the Mader framework is like that. That's basically the foundation of how our body or metabolism works. Then I'd have expanded the whole thing with the Critical Power model and the W-Prime model, to better understand race dynamics and to include specificity.

Björn: Yeah — though I find the Mader simulation — for me it's not the same, but if you've understood the W-Prime model or glycolytic power or Mader-VLamax, then it's the same. It's always about — you have an aerobic and anaerobic ability, and you can split the anaerobic share again into glycolytic and then the phosphate share. That's what a W-Prime model covers. It's nice because it's simple and visually understandable. But you can also do that with the VLamax model the same way.

Niclas: I found the interesting thing — you can, especially through the W-Prime model, because you also — I'd say — super easily — you already have it slightly modified in WKO. What I really like using it for is showing riders why and how, for example, the effort at the start cost them the race. And that you can — sure, Mader explains it, but show that visually on the rider — and for that I use — You see it at ours.

Björn: It's at Afasteryou for example — and it's even better. We've adapted the W-Prime model to Mader and have a PCr system — the phosphate system — in it, and that's the decisive thing. When that breaks off, it goes south. The weakness with a W-Prime model is always that it's a static model. You don't know what happens after three hours, after four hours. There we have this winged word — durability — so what does that mean? It's a fuzzy term. Ultimately it's also somehow — how is your VO2max after four hours? Can you still pedal 500 watts after four hours like you could at the start? Most likely not, so your VO2max has dropped. And a model should include that. However, effort-based. And I'd say — you could just blunt say — per kilojoule we lose so-and-so much power, or we lose per kilojoule per time unit. Then we have the watts. We lose such and such performance at VO2max and don't get it back. That'd be a smarter model. That you build such a time-based model, and then ideally — which doesn't mean anything other than, I already have an idea of how high the fast-twitch fiber share of the musculature is, and thereby how fast someone fatigues. And then I can also — that'd be the logical next step — through the torques generated. If I generate high torques at high powers, it means I have a higher FT share. If I have a cadence of, say, 90 and ride a high power, it's somewhat already. If I ride 120, I again have a high share of FT fibers. And that should come in models — many models don't do that. Messenger and Dunst have — I think, no, I know — we published a bit more this year where this model has optimal cadences in various regions, and then you'd have to also factor in fatigue. There are no studies on that, it hasn't been measured — it's super laborious. But that's where we're going, and you'd first have to measure it. Or what does measure mean — you first have to calculate it data-driven. How much drop-off we have at various performance levels with metabolic profile and the corresponding torques. Then you can build an understanding of how much performance loss this athlete will have. Because anyone with a high W-Prime usually — also has a higher performance loss, if VO2max isn't astronomically high. Right, that's how I'd do it. Simple. Because of the torque point. How many people are still listening? All gone. I think — in the background someone's — is anyone actually still listening to what we're saying?

Niclas: But that's completely irrelevant. Main thing, I'm learning something. And we're exchanging. This isn't an entertainment podcast.

Björn: Yeah, true. And the joke is, we could go even more specific. But we rather don't.

Niclas: Yeah, I think that's not necessary. But exactly because of the point you raised about torques and cadences, I'd then for example bring in strength training as the next point, and look — okay, what are the race demands, what strength training makes what sense for the athlete?

Björn: Does it make sense? Also the question. There's an approach — when you said, we first have to somehow build an outer system around Mader or Arken, even better. That'd be the first point. I'd go one step back — what's the point of a cool endurance system if you have a body and chassis that can't handle the thing? So we should maybe talk about that first. Is this body, the musculature, even capable of high sustained load? On the bike, the bike carries a lot; running, significantly less.

Niclas: Running you'd maybe even start with strength training first.

Björn: Yeah, I think even on the bike it makes sense to say — I first look at, how capable is this athlete, are there any imbalances and so on. The higher the volume gets, the fitter the system gets — we constantly have some small issue in the knee, pulls somehow or the foot or I have a hallux or such small things — at the end of the day performance gets exorbitantly high and more and more forces on the body. But if I have the weakest link somewhere, it'll collapse there at some point. So maybe you should start with — therapists, bluntly put, how would you do it in the WorldTour? Are there muscular imbalances, are there weaknesses in the musculoskeletal system, anything you can address. And start working on that. You can do that in parallel, no stress, and then put the training on top. That's how it's done. That's — are you fit for your sport?

Niclas: Yeah, but that's something — in practice you have to start basically with what's basically the whole toolkit I want to apply to an athlete, and why do I want that. But of course, if I have an athlete, maybe a junior athlete just starting out. I almost think — or optimally — every club also offers athletic training. I used to go to St. Ingbert, I was in the gym twice a week at the club. We did relatively playful but still very targeted athletic training, which I think really helps me today. I have pretty good athleticism in the upper body and overall, to handle many of these stimuli and all this training.

Björn: That's why you're not a climber anymore.

Niclas: Yeah, well. That's why I may not be a climber anymore.

Björn: Maybe next time don't bench press 120 kilos at 14. Why?

Niclas: Looks good. And the next point is definitely nutrition. In short, fuel the work required. First fuel all the training I do properly, eat properly in training, around training, before, after. First eat properly. I think that's also a really big point — I see with a junior athlete — That they just manage it. Not after three hours of base — I forgot to eat again. So start directly in the first hour with the first bar. Actually with today's methods it's super easy on the bike. And there are still very experienced athletes who have to train to just eat enough and to eat large amounts.

Björn: I also think — with these two points you raised — you can ride endlessly many kilometers easily, if you just eat a ton, maybe even over-eat a bit, you'll have a mega adaptation over the years. That's actually it. And in training, sure. After training, sure. Rather eat a bit more than too little.

Niclas: Bluntly put. I find — the two best examples currently riding around are actually Schwarzbauer and Abrahamsen, who just showed — okay, with more weight on the scale they have much better race results. And I think that's also just extremely type-dependent, and nobody should starve themselves crazy. The more I work with Hexis, the more athletes I see — what they eat, how they behave, and what amount they can eat. Of course — Hexis, so everyone understands. Hexis is a platform — you track your food, and TrainingPeaks or Intervals, whatever, is connected to it, loads your training, loads the energy expenditure, and Hexis adjusts the whole thing constantly — how many carbs, fat, protein you need to eat, when you ideally eat it, your daily plan. I have breakfast at 8, then I go train, then I have my post-workout meal, then lunch, then dinner. If the other way around, for example more carbs at lunch because you train in the evening, stuff like that — it really works really well with Hexis. What I often see there — athletes usually have a good reason why they're heavier or lighter, depending on how they eat and maybe what their natural feeling is about hunger. And it's really exciting — each one has a type, and you should listen to that and not try to press yourself into something, because otherwise the absolute performance stops. That's why I always say — mass is power.

Björn: Mass is compound score.

Niclas: First fuel your training properly, and then performance comes. And then at a certain point you can — you shouldn't get fat, but I mean, if you train enough, that doesn't happen anyway. And then you can still look at — okay, what kind of rider are you, and maybe you're not made for the mountains, you're made for the flats. In gravel races now, also in offroad sport, there are enough possibilities to let off steam and to perform as a heavier rider. Definitely. Right, but you first have to teach that to many riders who still think — yeah, weight has to be as low as possible. And what I found funny again — I think Abrahamsen posted it the other day. He now first has to get used to eating so much rice and pasta again, before he can start really training, because he can't get the food in yet. Good, last — no, two more points on my list. That was race-specific training. Things like that — I think you gladly forget when you only look at VO2max. Or only look at VLamax — that from a certain point in the year, depending on when your event is coming up, you definitely have to bring in certain specificity to get a good race result. Independent of where you are in the year. Winter, spring is super to work on your weaknesses, to fundamentally become a better athlete. But from a certain point we just have to see — if your goal is to perform well at an event, from a certain point you have to work race-specific, so you have fun at your event, deliver a certain performance you worked for all winter. Right. And the last point — psychology. I think it's important — you also see there are just differences in how much pain a rider can endure, mental fatigue, pacing strategies, stress management. And also confidence training — training sessions that help an athlete, not because they might be the physiologically or the most race-specific, but because the athlete goes into the race with a broad chest and thinks, ah cool, I can do this. And then just rides faster, because if the guy attacks up front, they don't think, ah no, I can't do it and let go. Because it makes a huge difference in your mentality — how long and how well you can endure pain. Because ultimately — any athlete riding up front, or generally riding, will confirm — it always hurts. A race isn't something pleasant. A race will hurt. Winning is sometimes about very small differences. If you ride up front and have the feeling — ah cool, you've got the others under control — it feels less painful, you press a bit more, you ride a bit longer at threshold or just below, where others slip into tempo or Fatmax zone because they don't want the pain anymore. Just because you got the confidence in that moment, you're fast a bit longer and close it out. Even though the other rider energetically and power-wise could do the same, they don't, because they don't have the confidence in that moment and don't want the pain. Whatever.

Björn: Train hard, race easier. Especially mentally. And there are quite a few very good athletes who consciously forgo heart rate monitors or watts, because it just makes them nervous. If they see, oh god, somehow 600 watts the whole time and I already have 190 pulse — I can't sustain that. That's why there are many who just say — I don't hook it up at all, because it only makes me nervous. Even if you know it, subjectively it still does something to you. But you're right — when you do training that's really hard. And I find — it's always nice when you're riding a race and you remember, it hurt more before in a session. Then you get a really good feeling. And then the question — what kind of rider are you? Riding from the front — you have the feeling, okay, they first have to come past me. That can give people a boost. Or you say, I'll pace myself first and try to have it under control. That's mentally also different. I remember some riders who could only ride from the front. ...who mentally collapsed and performance went underground when they weren't up front. Because they mentally couldn't handle that someone else was there. That's not because they were weak, but just because mentally a switch flipped. And that triggers something, yeah.

Niclas: I have to say, I think — it's actually also normal. If you're riding up front or in the leading group and you know, okay, you're still racing for the win or for a placement that means something, you ride differently. With a whole different confidence and whole different attitude to the whole thing. And that makes a huge difference. And I think — it's also important, especially if you're a rider who maybe isn't riding for the win or podium, which is true for most — to set yourself a realistic, achievable goal for the race. Stay calm in the race, whether you have a flat or — just have something where you know, okay, this is my focus. I want to — no idea — over four hours ride 300 watts NP, whatever. Just set yourself a goal where you know, okay, this is the goal and I push for this. Then first, when you're in a position to be realistic — okay, I can race for the win here — you set yourself that as a goal. Because I think many athletes often set goals that maybe aren't quite realistic and not quite achievable. And then later they don't get the result or the average performance, whatever, to really have a successful race.

Björn: Motivation, correct assessment. That's a decisive point. A new study came out a few days ago. More about torque and cadence. Monuments, Bay Lan Sanremo and all those from 2021 to 2023 were looked at. What do the top 5 push, and what do positions 6 to 30 push? They deliberately took those groups, because the thinking was — we have two groups, those who win, who ride for the win, and others who are still motivated enough to ride for a top-30 placement. So there's a bit of tactical skirmishing. They assumed they really pull everything out of themselves, especially at this race. There's definitely something to that. They still smell a top placement, and everything behind that they basically dropped, because they just ride to the finish or did helper jobs and roll in. Right, you should keep that in mind. Sure, either you ride for yourself personally, a good race. Motivation of course intrinsic and then external motivation. So — I'm riding here for the win or I'm riding against someone. You have to figure out from yourself what the drive is. Intrinsically interested is always better. Unless it's self-hate.

Niclas: Have you ever had an athlete who told you — I'm riding here from self-hate?

Björn: I think most people ride from self-hate. Honestly. I think most endurance athletes — come on, who's so stupid they sit on a bike for hours in crap weather?

Niclas: Yesterday I hated myself again for this decision.

Björn: So I think with many endurance athletes there's a high degree of processing, a high degree of self-inflicted suffering, because they aren't at peace with themselves and let it out through physical sport. I really think — but would you say that's self-hate? No, of course not. There's this funny interview snippet from Benjamin von Stuckrad-Barre. When he talks about how he starts writing — yeah, you do this and that, and then you sit down, hate yourself again, and then start working. Everyone laughed of course, because everyone carries their little package somehow, and sometimes don't — yeah, I think we've talked about that. Many Tour de France winners, at least from the past, had — you can just say — a crappy youth and a crappy time growing up. Ullrich and Armstrong, catastrophe. Wiggins, catastrophe. The guys who really burned themselves in. Froome too, father died early. They all had really hard times. I think endurance sport is a valve. And endurance sport, especially cycling or running, attracts people who didn't have much say in their youth. Mostly light, thin guys, or often were bullied or similar. Just like with artists too, who always process something. I have the feeling sometimes — whenever I work with people, there's something in the background. It's rarely that you have super happy-go-lucky types, and when you do, you know there's something in the background too.

Niclas: But maybe you can generally say it's somewhere a motivation to compensate for something from the past, or to prove something to someone, whatever.

Björn: But you can say that about humanity in general. If someone claims everything is super and everything's great and I have everything under control — you can say, either massively on drugs, or just crazy.

Niclas: Yeah, but if I have something like that — so I'm always good — I'll take it.

Björn: Yeah, sure, that's beautiful new — that's not entirely serious. We're accessible to negative thoughts and that's why news works so wonderfully. If we said now, the world has become fundamentally better, we murder each other significantly less than 200 years ago. Everyone who today sits in their somewhat ramshackle rental apartment that isn't so great, money tight — is still a hundred times better off than Louis XIV, who sat in some castle or Versailles, where there was only one toilet and his teeth fell out and he froze. So I think — and it's just important for our development — we're built to think negatively. That's our drive. I think that's the fundamental drive of humanity. Everything's crap, how do we make it better? And then improvement comes. The crappier it is, the faster improvement comes. The stupid thing about climate change is we don't really see it. We first have to get the proper slap so it gets going. Maybe that's still coming. It's already happening, and government-wise it's also always like — as long as it doesn't really hurt, nobody does anything, and when it really hurts, you do it properly. Yeah, curious what the venture will come up with in the next years.

Niclas: Yeah, okay. But to come back to — I'd say — the training systems. This is a cycling and endurance sports podcast.

Björn: To come back.

Niclas: Many with lactate intensity, for example already W-Prime, CP, the race performance notes, strength training as a mandatory component, in whatever form. Prioritize nutrition, build in race-specific training blocks, and integrate mental and pacing-oriented training elements to pull the max out of yourself mentally. You said earlier you wouldn't do the fundamental thinking just metabolically — so torques, cadences, and fundamental WP is visually nice, but has its flaws. Which points would you add to this system, remove, change to make it better?

Björn: And then — since we were on psychology — there too it has to fit somehow. I think I said before — why do I do this sport? Why does it attract me? What's my motivator? Does it come from outside, from inside? Who do I want to prove something to? Do I want to prove something to myself? No idea, but — for many — or with triathletes there was a survey. Motivation number one was a better body image. They wanted to look more athletic. It was purely cosmetic. It then changes, that they go to races. But fundamentally asking — why am I doing all this? What does it bring me? Often — or it can be — behind a lot of endurance sport, and that's not unusual, at least with the athletes I work with, a high degree of compensation is hidden. And then — if you think a bit more behind it — should I look at it more closely, maybe professionally too, do therapy or similar.

Niclas: Not unusual, I'd say. I think you often hear it from athletes — ideally athletes with a very long career — that they were super successful in the junior years, then early 20s, mid-20s briefly stop for a year and then come back, because they — Maybe lost sight of this why, or it simply changed, and you fundamentally have love for endurance sport, but the why maybe completely turns. An example — a rider who comes to mind — what happened I don't know, don't want to talk big about it, but for example Lukas Baum, who was insanely successful in the junior years, then I think two, three years basically disappeared from the scene and then came back and is super successful again. That's definitely a rider who went through some change to be long-term successful. Michael Phelps too. I think Hans Becking also wrote somewhere that in his 20s, mid-20s, he took a pause, to even carry this love for endurance sport. I think those are very positive examples — that you also don't have to be ashamed to take a break, to maybe even come back better, more sustainably, and also for yourself psychologically more sustainably.

Björn: Yeah — endurance sport, when it's hard and when it's a lot, then it is — you always say, it's of course on the endurance on one side. On the other, if you do it extremely, or many things extremely — doesn't have to just be sport, can be a lot, lots of work — it's also always a catalyst for — it brings out problems that were always there that you always nicely push away. And that's what makes it so nice when you do something very, very extreme. Often your compensation strategies you developed over the years, or that were taught to you by the family, when you can't get further, then you have to tackle it yourself. Right. Good.

Niclas: We talked it through well, I find. Curious what people pull out of it. If it helps anyone ride faster, I'm happy. Or be fundamentally happier in life. Yeah. Cool. Then I wish you a good rest of the week. I have to go pack now. Tomorrow it goes from cold Germany to — hopefully — warm Spain.

Björn: Next week, end of next week away. Also Gran Canaria. So Spain, but even further from Spain as it were. You're flying to the really warm.

Niclas: Or how many degrees is it on Gran Canaria right now?

Björn: Not bad.

Niclas: Short, short weather. Very nice. Then Björn, good week to you and we'll hear each other. Ciao, ciao. See you soon. Ciao, ciao.