Comeback smarter, not harder — il miglior modo per tornare dopo malattia e infortuni

Björn: Welcome to the Afasteryou Podcast, where everything revolves around endurance sports and training. Here Sebastian Schluricke, Björn Kafka, and Niclas Ranker give you valuable tips and insights to help you take your performance to the next level. A warm welcome to a new episode of the Afasteryou Podcast. Hi Björn.

Niclas: Morning.

Björn: How are you?

Niclas: Good. I brought nasal spray with me too. Okay. But it's just saltwater. I just noticed your nasal spray. It's not one of those addictive ones. Although the addictive kind, I find that pretty awesome. It works better, right? I find that totally fascinating. For many, many years I didn't grasp how awesome nasal spray actually is. It really does work. I mean, this isn't like... Yeah, of course it works. You take it, and then your nose is clear. And then you can sleep. I mean, how many years of my life I wasted with a half-blocked nose, where you lie on one side and then the other side gets blocked and you basically start breathing through your mouth and your lips get dry. And then there's actual nasal spray. And it works. But one good one, my classmate Lasse back then, I think it was. He always used a lot of nasal spray, and that somehow put me off.

Björn: Yeah, you really have to be careful not to become dependent on it and destroy your nasal membranes. Well, technically only the nasal membranes become dependent.

Niclas: You yourself aren't, like, strung out and shaking. But...

Björn: Good intro to the topic we want to discuss today, namely illness and injury. I thought we were going to talk about the pharma lobby or something. So we want to talk about how an athlete should ideally behave when they notice, okay, the throat is scratchy, the nose is starting to run or get blocked. Headaches, or what do they do after a crash and notice, okay, damn, I might have broken something. Exactly.

Niclas: Yeah, not just athletes, but also regular people or people who enjoy moving, and also people who don't enjoy moving, who move little — they can take this into account too. It's basically a podcast for everyone. Yeah, definitely also for me. Right. And of course we're not top-notch super experts. We're certainly not doctors or anything like that. So what we're sharing is what we see and advise in day-to-day training, how we come back, and especially little, how should I put it, shortcuts. Not to get healthy faster, but how can I maintain training when this or that is going on. What can I still do? That's what it's mostly about in professional sports, that I don't lie in bed for a week and completely lose form, but what can I still do to save something.

Björn: Yeah, and... Exactly, I definitely wanted to say that as an introduction too. Generally — and we'll mention this again later with a few points — it's always better to first consult a doctor. So if you're really not sure what to do, if you're not entirely clear about your symptoms, or depending on how severe they are, always consult a doctor first. Um... Right, because they studied it. Ideally. And ideally they also know what they're talking about. So, generally with illnesses — colds, infections, stomach bugs, whatever. What's your approach, what would you advise an athlete or also a regular person?

Niclas: Yeah, quite simple. Get healthy. What common sense tells you. If you feel lousy — funnily enough, I thought about that question beforehand — how often it happens that you still train through it. Yeah, that's kind of an inherent madness of a competitive athlete, and also many regular people — this idea that I have to function. That usually only leads to the whole thing dragging on like chewing gum. How often have I seen it, that someone has a cold and then somehow a two-hour recovery or easy base ride gets somehow squeezed in there, in the belief that you're still moving something, instead of saying, hey, just don't do anything for three days. Because usually then the whole thing is gone pretty quickly. And dragging yourself around half-sick — I'm really, really, really no friend of that anymore. Also this idea of, oh, the membranes get ventilated and this and that. That's all fine if you do it really, really easy, but most people I know don't do it really easy. Then I get calls like, I really tried it, I absolutely had to — I was on the trainer with the window open and I rode 140 watts at 150 heart rate. The heart rate is still 30 beats too high. Then I said, how did you even come up with the idea of getting on the bike? So, courage to skip it.

Björn: Absolutely. For athletes, I would actually always approach it like this. So basically, as soon as any symptoms of illness appear, I always say first — stay calm, don't do anything. Okay. If you want to move and feel like you can move — so we're talking about mild symptoms, no fever, mild cold, without bad sore throat, without nose completely blocked, without severe headaches — and you notice, okay, maybe I have a really light scratch in my throat or something. Go for a walk. So, dress warmly, maybe go for just a 30-minute walk, and after that stay on the couch, drink a lot. And especially sleep. Those are the first things. For anything that goes beyond that — so moderate symptoms or severe symptoms, where we're talking about fever, body aches, sore throat, cough, digestive problems, shortness of breath, whatever — always go to the doctor first. I always say that's also where the competence of a trainer or coach ends. I have nothing more to say there. There I always say, go to the doctor. That's the only way, and also never keep training — it won't help. And there, I think, without a doctor, you can always say the classics: sleep a lot, lots of fluids, eat proper protein and good proteins, and healthy fats. Ideally, or under no circumstances really, I would say — junk food, lots of sugar, unhealthy fats, all that stuff — definitely banish it, because it's inflammatory. And just stay calm. With illness, those are really the only sensible ways.

Niclas: Look, I'm really bad at that kind of thing. Staying calm — with me it's always, what does calm mean? I just can't sit still then. And there's another great medication, ibuprofen — that works super well too, at least for body aches. And you throw that in and you function reasonably well. And on the topic of junk food — I'm not a big junk food fan, but when I'm sick, I turn into a total junk food guy. Really bad. Because I have the feeling, I need a lot of energy now, then I don't cook anymore and I live off gummy bears, some puddings, cornflakes, and so on. And I can do that for a week. I love it. And I gain a kilo from it every time. But I have the feeling that I need it. Interestingly, that only works if I'm taking ibuprofen. Because if I let the body aches be body aches, then I'm not hungry at all. Then my body actually just wants rest. And then I just toss around in bed, lightly sweaty, and have no appetite anymore. But of course you're right. You shouldn't take in even more... I wouldn't say junk, but maybe unnecessary energy, maybe not-optimally-usable foods that might fuel the whole thing further — maybe better not. Yeah, but you're right of course, I don't do it.

Björn: I think it's also completely normal. Everyone finds it very hard that when you're sick and maybe feel bad, or have classic FOMO, everyone is training and you're the one here with — fear of missing out.

Niclas: Wow.

Björn: How awesome is that? Yeah, when you're lying on the couch, sick, feeling bad, and everyone around you is training, I think it's normal for most people to eat something unhealthy, because it makes them feel better in that moment of eating. Generally, it's not recommended, of course. A piece of chocolate won't make you sicker or drag the whole thing out super long. But eating unhealthy for several days makes no sense. I think healthy proteins, good omega-3 oil or good fatty acids, whatever, are definitely the better way to recover as quickly as possible. And too much, meaning an increased energy intake when you're not burning it off, also stresses the body, possibly stresses your digestive system, might even worsen your sleep, and is definitely not helpful for recovering faster.

Niclas: Let's talk a bit about the illnesses, from my experience. Stomach bugs can go really fast — you're empty once and then you fill it back up, that takes a bit, and depending on length and severity, I'd say from day one, if it stays in again, it can take 5-6 days, and then it's gone. Unless you're, I don't know, in South Africa and catch shigella or something there, then the whole thing can take a really long time. That's also why, if you race in exotic countries and you have stomach bug symptoms, please go to the doctor. Because that can really drag on like chewing gum. I have two athletes in mind right now, where it dragged on for three months. And it was half-okay again and then not so half-okay. And then I said, now we're going in. And then there were antibiotics and then the whole spook was over after five days. So, exactly. You can't forget how incredibly much energy illness costs. People underestimate that. Especially when they eat little. To raise body temperature by one degree, you need a few watts. Not many, but it adds up. One degree more, I don't know, depends on how much fluid is there. But that's... 50 watts, you can calculate it. And then a few kilocalories pile up, and that's why you feel miserable when you had an elevated temperature. And then the athletes always ask, I'm eating normally again, but somehow nothing sticks and I always feel weak. Yeah, you just had a wild deficit. It's similar with stomach bugs, though those are overcome relatively quickly. With colds, I'm always a bit more careful because... Everything that was stuck in the throat, in the nose and so on, can shift downward like an elevator. That's why, anything regarding intensity, cold air, and so on — if you have a cold, avoid it at all costs. You can really, really do stupid things. Getting on the bike half-sick... And possibly doing intervals or getting cold air leads to big problems. Never train with a fever. The heart muscle is always a bit affected. So, get healthy. And how long does something like this take? I find the country wisdom — three days coming, three days staying, three days going — always pretty cool. That works. I think zinc was once somehow proven to shorten the whole thing by one or two days. You can take it. I always get terribly dry membranes from zinc, and you also smell a bit better with zinc, which can sometimes be strange. Then you've developed a superpower. Um... Right, but those are the classics, and stay calm.

Björn: Yeah, so the classics where we scientifically know, okay, this actually helps something. With illness it's definitely 8 to 10 hours of sleep. Proteins, about 1.5 grams per kilogram of body weight, especially for athletes to prevent muscle loss. But that's also standard, I'd say. Every athlete should make sure they're getting enough protein. Yeah. Zinc and generally a good vitamin D balance, omega-3 fatty acids, and especially three to four liters of water, possibly teas too. With teas, don't drink them too hot, that also attacks the membranes, which isn't healthy. So let it cool down and don't pour down huge amounts of hot tea. That might also not be super helpful. Electrolytes, especially with fever or stomach bugs. Top up enough electrolytes, and of course no alcohol, no junk food, as I said. And then sleep, sleep, sleep.

Niclas: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um... Right. A cold, really, the most normal thing in the world. The flu is also going around, be a bit more careful with that. That can quickly lead to so-called superinfections — first flu, then cold on top, or bacteria on top.

Björn: Yeah. But now the question that will interest most athletes — how would you manage the return to training? So when am I even allowed to start training again? How much should I train then? How do I manage my training? Normally you can't just continue training with the FTP you had set before. That's probably going to backfire. And when do I ride the first intervals again?

Niclas: How do you manage that? First... classically, I first look at resting heart rate or HRV. I find resting heart rate also quite good, I find both parameters good, I can say. So with me now with the illness, from one day to the next — you saw a slight drop first in HRV, and then it really went down, and resting heart rate went from, I don't know, 42 to 60, then I knew, okay, everything's screwed. And then you watch until the resting heart rate slowly moves back into regions that feel more normal. So somewhere under 50 and you say, okay, now it's okay, HRV is also going slowly. And those are for me the very first indicators, apart from... So, I find your own body feeling important too, but you also easily lie to yourself there. Like, somehow this morning it feels okay and so on. And if I get body aches in the evening during the day, then the next day isn't for training either. Then, when I start training again, when I feel, okay — for two days now the resting heart rate is the way it should be. I'd say that. And I also don't have a scratchy throat and no more rattling or anything. Then I get on the bike and ride by heart rate. I'm not interested in power at all. And of course the power values are lousy and the heart rate feels too high. Sure, then you have a lot of, or loss of, blood volume. But — completely normal, that takes a few days, but I'd start the first week very slowly increasing volume. That's the first thing. And always only heart rate. And I wouldn't choose a 3-1 rhythm either, I'd go with somehow 2-1. And I would theoretically even split the training session into two training sessions per day, if you want to ride longer — somehow half an hour in the morning, half an hour in the evening. See how the body reacts. If after the first half hour I feel, that went okay, but I'm totally weak the rest of the day and can't do anything anymore, then I know, I skip the evening training session. And that's how you gradually test yourself forward. 2-1 rhythm in the first week, maybe in the second week, until you can train the volume you trained before again. And then comes intensity. And I wouldn't start with... I have to immediately launch into a polarized approach and do 17 times one minute at 580 watts with 10 seconds rest. Instead... Tempo training, Z3, sweet spot, maybe choose a bigger gear to not push the heart rate too high, and slowly approach it, slowly warm up the motor. And then you're back after three, four weeks where you were. That feels insanely long now, but... at least it's stable and sustainable.

Björn: Right. My favorite session that I actually always give my athletes for this is Fatmax alternation. So just in small steps from base training up to Fatmax and then back down and then back up, so they slowly get used to the different zones, to the load. Being able to increase, feel their way in, and then when you have the first two weeks of training in and the whole thing worked well and you feel healthy and stable again, then you can start with a few intensities again.

Niclas: And if anything feels crappy or you get a fever or your heart does something it shouldn't, or you have chest pain, then you don't go home, you go to the doctor. Yeah.

Björn: Right. Do you have anything more on the topic of illness before we move on to injuries and possible fractures?

Niclas: Illness is simple. Allowed to stay sick until you're healthy again. And the parameters are clear, everyone knows them. The only thing missing is patience and the fear of FOMO. I love that. I didn't really know it like that.

Björn: Well, the kid's teaching you something.

Niclas: Yeah. Nice. So, now we come to my favorite topic. Injuries. Hurt or injured. Yeah. Has the pill worn off, can I still train. Is the finger broken, can I still train. Is the collarbone broken, can I not train for three days. I'm relatively cold about that. Yeah, so... if anything lets me move...

Björn: the motor keeps running. Yeah, ultimately — let me say, bone fractures in the normal case, I'd say everything above, like arms, collarbone, actually not that bad. These days we have indoor trainers; if you get it immobilized and a good plate screwed on, then it holds up again. As long as you just sit on the trainer and don't really load it, you can continue indoor training normally. It gets tricky if you have something on the lower extremities, of course. So especially in cycling or also in running. Swimming is hard either way. Then you have to see what works and how. And what kind of movement is even possible. So if I can't move my lower extremities, what can I maybe just do with the upper body, handbike or something, just to load the cardiovascular system, for example. Really bad of course is the spine. Have you ever had that? I've actually had it twice. But for example the first time I got back on the bike relatively quickly. Indoor riding went pretty fast again. The second time also faster than the doctors said, but of course took significantly longer and was a harder process. Generally, what I definitely want to say from my experience and want to pass on to every athlete — if you crash hard, I'm not talking about, I slid out in the corner and my hip is a little bloody and it doesn't hurt badly or the skin is just scraped, I slid or something. You can probably keep riding. So that burns, that hurts, yeah, but mostly those are injuries where I say, okay, that's not so bad. But as soon as you've had a real impact, so as soon as you've hit something at, I don't know, 20 km/h or more, really ran into something — be it a tree, be it you hit the asphalt directly without really sliding — stop riding. Go to the hospital and get checked. In adrenaline you don't feel things that might be broken. I speak from experience. Possibly even, if you feel something is wrong with your back, stay lying down right there. So lay yourself, if you can, in the recovery position, stay lying, don't do anything, and call an emergency doctor, ambulance, whatever. Because the risk that you break something or make things worse than they already are is just there. And you can't assess it yourself. In adrenaline you don't feel some pains, they don't seem that bad. You try to get up or something. And that can quickly backfire if something is really injured in the spine. And also with every impact where the helmet is damaged, go to the hospital. It could be — even if you were wearing a helmet — that you have a brain injury you don't feel. And the next morning you don't wake up. Now of course that sounds very bad, but theoretically it could happen. And we have good health insurance in Germany. That means you can just go to the hospital, get checked, and then you know, is something wrong or not. And then you can just go home again the next morning. And then maybe it was a lot of fuss about nothing, but it could also just be something. And right.

Niclas: Yeah, so I see it often — we just had a training camp from a WorldTour team. A couple of people crash. There's standard procedure, even if it's just the hand that's open or whatever. Hospital, check-up, concussion, and so on. Nobody takes the risk there anymore, not anymore. I always think of a crash of a friend of mine. It was so gruesome on the topic of slow speed. He was cycling in winter, on Christmas Eve, in the evening, or later in the evening. And he was out in the forest. And a few days before, there had been, like, tree-felling machines or tractors — at least there were these wild tractor tracks in there. And these tractor tracks, these grooves, they were really high, they stood up really high. And then it froze through completely for a few days. And he slammed into one of these edges in slow motion with his thigh and really shattered his entire thigh. Broke it multiple times. Really bad. On this sand, basically, that had broken up hard. And he lay there. And couldn't move an inch. It was freezing cold and that just before Christmas Eve. And quite coincidentally, another lonely soul came along — the hunter or forester or whatever — and found him with already serious frostbite. And he was then somehow taken to Heide to the hospital. No, not Heide, Nibel or wherever he was. And there he first had to be patched back together. And the leg was really bad. And our buddy here, he also really shredded his thigh once. And that also took a long time. Yeah. Also didn't notice. Hurt a little. And walked around with a femoral neck fracture for another two weeks or so. I don't know how long. And went there, and they said the bone is most likely gone. We'll give you an artificial hip joint in your early 40s. But everything turned out fine.

Björn: Got lucky. But that's one of the examples where I say, if you crash that hard, get in the ambulance. I was at races, you always want to finish, and here two years ago at the Cape Epic, Paul, my teammate, broke his collarbone on the descent for the prologue. So he really crashed hard, and I saw right there, said to him too, and I saw that the helmet was also broken, and said, yeah, come on, let's just, go to the hospital, get checked, no, he definitely wants to start tomorrow. Damn. So those are things where I also told him afterwards, and he now knows too, where I say, health is worth way too much for that, and cycling, in quotation marks, so unimportant. I would always get checked.

Niclas: Yeah, the sport is already hard enough, you don't have to make it even harder. Right. And most people don't even get paid for it. So you don't have to be stubborn about it. I mean, I remember Nadav Raisberg at the Giro, who crashed, bruises his thigh nastily and breaks both hands and still rides another 70 kilometers to the finish. He gets a lot of cash for that. And even then I'd say, wow. He didn't even get it. He couldn't brake anymore, nothing. And then the rehab measures were of course exciting. You mentioned the indoor trainer — you know what my favorite training device is for stuff like that? Also for collarbones and so on. It's the StairMaster. Yeah, I've been through it too. Yeah, it's the best training device in the world. This upward work you do, these Infinity Stairs or whatever those devices are called — the best there is. Anything broken up top, go to the gym, hopefully they have one of those things, and then you just climb stairs for hours.

Björn: It's awesome. Well, I just went through it in the summer. I didn't find it so awesome, but it worked. Ultimately, looking at it, after my spine fracture I had, I think, 16 weeks after the fracture an all-time best 20-minute power again. Because after — I think after four and a half weeks, no, after four weeks, once the rib fractures had somewhat healed and I could breathe normally, we started going on the StairMaster again. And then I was back in shape relatively quickly. So it really works well.

Niclas: Did they mix up the blood bag during the OP?

Björn: I didn't have an OP. Okay, but basically, first advice is always — first get medically examined. And after that... To a certain extent you should take painkillers if you really have severe pain. Definitely. I think with cyclists, the risk is not that high anyway. Depends on the severity.

Niclas: Depends on the painkiller, if you're throwing in morphine. Right. Lung broken and this and that all broken. Then you can only survive a few days with that stuff. They are quite addictive. So it gets a bit harder to get off them.

Björn: Yeah. But then always watch, possibly taper down the painkillers, because when you want to start moving again, the whole thing only works if you're not in pain — and for that you have to get off the painkillers first, and then be able to manage the whole thing sensibly and do it without too much pain. Right. Normally I'd say, the whole thing takes about four to six weeks until you can start moving lightly again after a real fracture where you had to stay still. And then the recommendation, what helps with nutrition, is actually almost the same as with illness. Basically you can make sure to increase calcium and vitamin D, protein up to 2 grams, and also omega-3 fatty acids, zinc, magnesium definitely help also stimulate bone healing. I know you're a big fan of — what are these electrons called that you can put on your legs?

Niclas: Compex or something.

Björn: Compex, exactly. You're a big fan of that, for example to stimulate the muscles a bit when you're in bed, so they don't completely waste away.

Niclas: Right, so I like it. I also see a fracture like that always as an opportunity. Because you — I like that, you can start. For me as a coach it's awesome, it's a puzzle. I can now do this cool six-week plan and then have to work creatively, I like that too. And I mean, with you it worked well. Here, our friend from Holland, Tim Smeenge. That's a nice example. Complete body destruction at the Alpentour. And then we knew, we have four months left until the only race he can ride. And he wants to win it. And those were also the national championships with Hans and Wout and co. on the start line. So really, people with serious pressure. And it worked. It really did. You don't have to be afraid. And not bury your head in the sand and say, oh damn, now I can't ride a bike, now I can't run, now I can't do this anymore — but just say, okay, how can I find a movement pattern I can deliver and also get a good aerobic stimulus from it. And then things come quickly. I've also had people who had knee issues, but they could hike. So I put a 15-kilo backpack on their shoulders and said, now you hike up the mountain. And take the cable car down. Bam, worked great. StairMaster, Compex, all the things you don't normally do. Inline skating too, I also do lots of inline skating when there are somehow some problems, other movement patterns — for example I had someone with a hip issue who couldn't flex into it because there was such an intense hematoma in this case, but the hip worked wonderfully. And then you maintain things for a very, very long time, or rather, you can even build things up.

Björn: So I think what you should do is, ideally you have a doctor who also briefly thinks about what really works with which injury, what makes sense. And also for example with a spine injury, many things where most doctors come into the hospital and tell you, yeah, 12 weeks bed rest. Doesn't work, is complete humbug, you don't need it. You just have to see, okay, what do you have, and what can you ideally implement with it. Sure, there are cases — if you really completely shred yourself, there's nothing else you can do if you can't get out of bed. So that's understandable, but if you have somehow, I don't know, a broken arm, a broken leg, a broken vertebra for example, there are always cases where you can say, okay, you can still do something to maintain things somewhat and also promote healing. Right. I was told, for example, that the fracture would definitely take 12 weeks. After seven and a half weeks, no fracture was visible on the MRI anymore, everything had healed. And after eight weeks I could go on the indoor trainer and ride, perfectly fine. So, it went perfectly.

Niclas: So these healing processes — yeah, you can promote them a bit, also through movement. What doesn't work so well is altitude. By the way, you can do it if you have lots of time, but basically altitude slows healing processes, especially with fractures. Sometimes we put people in these, yeah, hyperbaric oxygen chambers to speed up healing. It's super annoying. You have to cart people there and this and that, you only do that in the WorldTour. We did that a few times with fractures. It worked well. And otherwise, get creative with movement. That's the be-all and end-all.

Björn: How would you — let's say after a longer break, 8 to 12 weeks — how would you structure the return to training? So 8 to 12 weeks of no training at all? Or how do you mean? Worst case, 8 to 12 weeks of really no training at all. Yeah, go for walks. Really, then you just have to start very easy.

Niclas: Then you start very easy. Then you take off the power meter so you don't get depressed. Then you ride 19 to 21 km/h and your heart rate is in the base zone on a road bike with aero wheels. And you roll around. But the amazing thing is, the progress you make in these very short periods. So adaptation processes happen incredibly fast. In the first two weeks you've already gained an enormous amount. And then it slowly feels like training again. So, start very slowly and don't overdo it. Look at how — I'd look at the resting heart rate in the morning. Resting heart rate, HRV, how do you feel? How do I wake up? What hurts? Um... Does that work, done. And one more quick thing, if I had an OP, collarbone or whatever, I had anesthesia, there are screws still half sticking out of me — be a little careful there too. So not right after the OP, there are also those nice pictures, somehow just operated on and on the indoor trainer after the operating table. Hey, anesthesia really hits you hard. You're also not always at peak circulation-wise. So take it easy for a few days, and the... The wound has to be healed, it has to be dry, it has to be healed, nothing is allowed to ooze. You really don't want any infection or anything in there, the body is already weakened anyway. So be more careful there too. And yeah, a re-entry is simply, just do it and watch how the heart rate slowly develops. Then you start with three hours, four, five hours maybe a week, quite easy. If I'm coming from zero, five hours is then 500 percent. Quite easy and then it goes super fast. And the fitter someone was, the faster they come back. There's also one from the 70s, end of the 70s, mid-70s, by Saltin, the sports scientist who also invented the Saltin diet. But he once nicely showed how detraining processes work in athletes. And how fast people lose fitness. And what you've built up over years doesn't disappear overnight. Of course you lose a lot, but you still re-enter at a much higher level than many others who might be healthy but have never really done sport. So there's no need to be afraid. If you train for six, seven, eight weeks, you're actually already back at a very, very, very, very high level. That's always the fascinating thing — when you have people who — still becomes second at the Tour de France. Sure, he has the best team of doctors imaginable around him. And surgeons and whatnot. And top trainers and who knows what. But he crashed hard from an incredible level. That was high, and then nothing went for a few weeks. But he of course didn't start from zero. But sure, the first half hour of cycling was crap. Total crap. Absolutely.

Björn: Okay, basically, but definitely, as I said, we're not doctors, always consult with a doctor ideally. And also one more point — start physio as early as possible, as early as you can. So I, I think two weeks, so after I could breathe relatively normally again because of the ribs, I started with the lightest physio exercises, walked around the block. Half an hour, really did exercises where I felt — my girlfriend is doing physio training, and I also consulted a very good physio from Cologne. They gave me exercises where I thought, this isn't training, this isn't exercise, what is this? But ultimately it's movement, it's more than before when you were lying in bed. And thus it's basically another step in the direction of, okay, you're progressing again. And it was just about somehow pushing pressure onto the door frame with an outstretched arm, to put it crudely. Just to build up tension in the muscles, which already helps. You have to imagine this — our body actually starts very quickly to break down things it doesn't need if they're not being used. So really now, we're talking about you just lying 24/7 in bed. Yeah. Our body unfortunately starts very quickly to break down, because muscles consume energy, our body wants to save energy, starts to break it down. And if you use them even a little bit — that's why I always tell every athlete, if you feel good enough to manage a half-hour walk and you don't have severe pain, go walk for half an hour. It helps because the body breaks down less, and really — I had to learn that too — really the simplest exercises help to stimulate regeneration and be back faster.

Niclas: Muscles atrophy incredibly fast, really incredibly fast. And tendons, ligaments and so on also shorten incredibly fast. I always remember the elbow that my wife dislocated, and she had to start physio immediately, to regain mobility. That really took time. It was wild how long that took. Even though it was only fixed for a few days. And there's especially now, for older people — I recently talked with Sebastian — so when we do training planning, what is theoretically possible? At what age is what possible? At some point it drops off, and then you look at what's the highest oxygen uptake at 100 still, what it comes to. What's generally the highest oxygen uptake, or you call it watts per kilo — then we have no problem. At the 4 to 5 minute power. Then you can draw a line there and say, okay, that's theoretically possible. But you see very often — there isn't a straight line, rather you have these steps that might drop off. You have many steps at 70, 75 and so on. There you have real drops. People get insanely bad.

Björn: From the perspective of a young athlete, definitely.

Niclas: Yeah, they get insanely bad. You have like 50, 60, maybe 65, that's still really in shape. And then you always have, bam, then nothing more at all, they crash. And did they get bad overnight? No, of course they didn't. And there was a study about that. I don't remember anymore. That's a professor from Holland, I think. He showed that nicely, or his thesis behind it — or theory — is that people at some age start to hurt themselves and break bones. And they lose such incredible amounts of muscle mass during that time that they don't come back at all. And that's — everyone knows this, who has a grandma, or also parents who are a bit more fragile. Every OP... You lose — firstly, the older you get, you lose a big portion of fast muscle fibers. So you have your slow ones. The fast portion just disappears. And the few you still have, the few slow ones, that barely suffice to manage the smallest thing. The smallest thing means I come up the stairs. If you then crash and you lose — because you're in the hospital for two weeks — one and a half kilos of muscle mass, no joke, it goes that fast — then you can't walk up the stairs anymore. Then you have to fight your way back so to speak. That's why this and this protective thinking is then not always right. Muscle is lost, as you already said. And exactly, with this modeling of oxygen uptake, because we somehow calculate training and what's theoretically possible — that was a really interesting approach, this study. And we had to smooth through it first, and of course thought about it — ideally you don't crash or have a femoral neck fracture or something, because the loss of muscle mass... it kills you at the end of the day. Quality of life drops, you don't move anymore. Oxygen uptake drops. Classic indicator for life preservation, so to speak, or life extension. VO2max. And that's why — always try to do something. And... also a thought for all listeners who have older people around them or maybe are older themselves. In this context, strength training also becomes really interesting. Because the portion of fast muscle fibers disappears somehow. People also build up little lactate and all these things. Strength training. Two, three times a week. Also with age. Just get into it. Most likely more important than endurance training. At some point there are tipping points. Especially also for bones. Yeah, sure. I mean, cycling is a crappy sport in that regard anyway. When you already have U19 riders and then, yeah, actually you have osteoporosis, so to speak — bone density of an 80-year-old woman. Yeah, you have to think about that. Though fortunately there's also a bit of countermeasures now, saying, okay, let's do strength training with people and they eat a bit better. But sure, cycling is a low-impact sport. That means the bones get little. Depending on weather conditions can also lead to strong demineralization. I don't know, if you live in Namibia and are out all day at 30 degrees plus, you lose an extreme amount. And then you can also demineralize your bones. Does happen, I've seen cases with pro athletes who then had osteoporosis in their early 40s. For these reasons. So — what to do? Strength training. Top-notch thing.

Björn: Definitely. Okay. For me one more important aspect — mental. So simply the mental aspect. Especially after a crash. Just from personal experience, go slowly. So if you really crashed hard and get on the bike for the first time again, it's completely normal that maybe the first time you ride more briskly around a curve, you have a feeling of insecurity — approach it slowly, maybe first become conscious of the fact that it's normal that you maybe have a little trauma, or depending on how bad the crash was, a bigger trauma, and then just step by step become aware of that and try to progress. Really. For me it started with a normal curve on the road, riding briskly around it again with a mountain bike, which has significantly more grip than a road bike for example. Before I even went into the forest again — first on the road, feeling safe on the bike again. Then riding in the forest, normal paths, just step by step approaching it and slowly building up. And I know from my own group of friends, even when colleagues basically say, hey come on, let's ride trails — if you don't feel safe, don't do it. That mostly only leads to — when you feel unsafe on trails, you make mistakes, and then you crash again, and that's not helpful. Instead be honest with yourselves, approach it slowly, don't let anyone push you, and then you'll be back riding fast on the trail, for example in mountain biking or also fast on the descent on the road, faster than you think. When you do the whole thing at your own pace, the way you just feel safe, and give yourself days and weeks to approach it again.

Niclas: And there are also professionals. That means if you can't deal with it, there are also sports psychologists who learned that, how to deal with such problems. And when you notice that riding technique has to slowly come back, no matter what sport — or also trail running, quickly running down the trail and you want to get a feel for it again. You always do that in a rested state. That means you warm up briefly, then do the technical stuff, and then ride base afterwards. Never, never, never at the end. When you're tired, when you're already saying, okay, now I'll do a bit more here and there. Those are always the times when you crash. Uncoordinated, tired, possibly anxious still. Recipe for disaster. So never do it. Always rested and fresh.

Björn: Yeah, and then maybe also just — at least that's how I did it, and those are, I think, my best experiences — really set aside a training session for it. So become conscious of this process. It's normal that if you crashed really hard or even just crashed lightly, you maybe lose a bit of trust in the tires, that you don't build up the grip anymore. Yeah, then approach it slowly. Ride a curve and maybe already have one foot unclipped, so that if you feel, okay, you're maybe sliding out, you can catch yourself directly. So, really do the simplest things to get a feeling and a sense of security back again, and then step by step, maybe day to day, or I'd rather say day to day, week to week just increase a bit. First ride a very light trail, then a harder one, do a small jump before you do a big jump, whatever. Just the whole thing — exactly like healing and also an illness is always a process, or also training is a process — also accept that the mental point is just as much a process. Our brain has to learn to get the movement pattern back maybe, and that just takes time too.

Niclas: Yeah, and always remind yourself that everyone gets injured, everyone gets sick, everyone fights their way back, and never stop believing that you can make it.

Björn: I have to — right now I find this very nice — Hans Becking is doing a lot more Instagram this year and at the end of last year. And Hans is definitely at least in mountain bike marathon sport, yeah, very well established, it feels like always — since I've been following this sport, Hans is a pro and rides fast on a bike, it's... really wild. And I find it very nice that he's currently sharing very openly and honestly that even every top pro has these crappy days where you feel bad, where you're sick, there are phases where it's not going. Because you always only see, bluntly put, you see on Instagram the people who win. But you rarely see the people who also crash, people who maybe fight for 16 weeks to get back on the bike well again and ride fast again. And that he as a pro shares it like that and shows, okay, it's normal, it happens to each of us. That's, I think, important for everyone who experiences it.

Niclas: Of course for a professional athlete it's always doubly hard, now especially for Hans. He's making, I think, another post, another one about it. We looked at what he has now, where it's stuck. What did he do last year and prepared, or the year before, last year then for the Epic, and what this year — and actually everything was going okay, but there are these three, four weeks that went really crappy, with illness, also diffuse, was traveling a lot in South America and then had fever, and then couldn't again, and you really have such a month where little happens. It's more like a slight — you fall the whole time. And then we had three weeks time for the Mad Epic. That's it. And what can you do in these three weeks? There were two options. Either I chase him through the meat grinder in panic, in the hope that he gets super good and pulls something off. Or he completely burns, burns out on me. And then we of course decided on base. And the Mad Epic, the race was just earlier than usual. Yeah, it was another week earlier. Time was running out, and that's how it is — races are time-bound. And Martin Frei is also this example, yeah, what a hellish season he had last year, nothing went. So many injuries, yeah, somehow here sick, knee broken, and and and. The turnaround came then of course, or Seewald, when he had his EBV, yeah, where nothing went. Yeah, so um... Everyone goes through this. The exciting thing is of course always — they still made it and and and. But honestly, 90 percent, at least at the beginning, is just one endless doubting-around, and everything sucks, and everything feels lousy, and every training is good. And then after three weeks you get an SMS as a coach, and then he says, hey, that was the first training in three weeks that felt okay. All the others before were only, only torture, only crap. I never felt good, and and and. Yeah. Yeah. I see it the same way. So it's really, um, I, I — yeah, that's kind of the difference. Training of course also has to somehow be fun, clearly. But there are phases — you have to — there's also six weeks that are just crap. Every training is hard and nothing feels easy and the weather is bad and rain from the left and wind from the right or whatever. Yeah, everyone else goes through that too. And I think, especially with Clemens I talked about this — Clemens Hesse, from Q36 — I had longer conversations, and this performance density we have now, yeah, in cycling — I mean, now at the Tour of Oman they ride up at 6.8 watts, yeah, and I say, hey, Clemens, that's just wild, yeah, now you have one, or I have one, he rides into the top 15, you think, wow, already good values, yeah, but there are just so many good ones, and it happens, right, so everyone pulls through, um, yeah, and... that's of course also high, high mental pressure, that everyone knows — I turn off my head and just pull it through. And that alone, that's a huge advantage. You have to reconcile that with yourself of course, whether you want to and can. But I say sometimes... blunt is also kind of trump, not thinking too much about it being dumb and it being hard, but just, that's your job, that's what you're doing now.

Björn: Yes.

Niclas: Nice. Good. So, next week we have a special guest.

Björn: Again. I'm curious.

Niclas: In German? In German. Very nice. Can I already announce it, or? Do you do that? You can do it. So next week it's Thorsten Walter, physiotherapist Thorsten Walter, with us as a guest. Was the physiotherapist at Canyon for a long time. Is now with Specialized a lot. Gravity. And — good friend of mine, I've known him for very, very many years, and there it'll be mostly about cycling ailments, what can I do and so on, and he'll tell a bit from the inside, how world champion legs feel and so on. Anyone who has questions can send them to us on Instagram.

Björn: How does the calf of Andreas Seewald feel? Tell us, Thorsten. No.

Niclas: Nice. And also for Thorsten, there's also a nice story about — I shred myself completely.

Björn: So I would now — I know the story, I wouldn't unfortunately say it's nice, but Thorsten definitely — when it comes to shredding oneself, he can really play up front, yeah?

Niclas: Yeah. That actually nearly led to a conflict between us. We had called, and then he says, yeah, I'll call you, and and and and. Suddenly he didn't get back to me. I thought, hey, damn, what happened? Did I do something to him? And then I tried to reach him, and he didn't answer his phone, and we actually wanted to call the following week. And they weren't at Canyon yet, meaning I didn't have that much to do with him yet, but still Ergon and this and that. And then I heard about his very, very severe accident. And then he — somehow four months later I found out — it really hit him hard. More about that next week. Living proof, so to speak. Right.

Björn: Very nice. Good, Björn, then I wish you a good week. We'll hear each other again next week.

Niclas: See you soon.

Björn: Bye, bye.