Pogačar, Potenza e Pasta

Björn: Welcome to the Afasteryou Podcast, where everything revolves around endurance sports and training. Sebastian Schluricke, Björn Kafka and Niclas Ranker give you valuable tips and insights to help you take your performance to the next level. Alright, welcome to a new episode of the Afasteryou Podcast after three or four weeks. Are we finally making it happen again? Hello. Hi.

Niclas: A lot has happened.

Björn: Yeah. You traveling, me traveling, me sick. It was pretty tough to find time for a good episode. And during that time, of course — we're in the main phase of the season — a lot went down. Tons of races. The women's Tour de France, which both of us felt caused quite a stir. German marathon championships, and we're right before the mountain bike world championships in all disciplines.

Niclas: And Ötzi is right around the corner.

Björn: Ötzi is this weekend, exactly. So we had Swiss Epic, where everyone got sick.

Niclas: Right, Niclas Ranker also pulled the plug at Swiss Epic.

Björn: Yeah, definitely. I somehow finished the thing, but it was a really shitty week for me, honestly. Otherwise, I don't know how it went for your athletes who finished, but everyone I know, everyone in my circle, got sick.

Niclas: Yeah, almost all of them got sick except Marc Stutzmann. He was always first across the line and had little contact with people.

Björn: Didn't overexert himself. Yeah, didn't overexert himself. But afterward, really, everyone I know, every one of my athletes, every co-rider — many got sick during the race. I got sick during the race too. Really awful.

Niclas: Yeah, a really brutal race. So Vera Looser, who won the thing with her partner Alexis — right, they didn't get sick, and Max Stutzmann with Samuele Porro didn't get sick either. They finished second. I actually think they would've won the thing if they hadn't trashed their rim on day one and lost seven or ten minutes. Still a cool story — coming from tenth to second in GC. Pretty cool. So they definitely have good form, which of course makes me happy for the worlds. And Vera too — that was a dream team up front, those two. And on your side, with the mix with Anna — that also went perfectly. A solid partner. Kimo, right. Yeah, they also crushed it. Yeah, Hat-trick almost, almost every category dominated.

Björn: All Afasteryou athletes somehow. Yeah, I liked that.

Niclas: Right, but let's quickly talk about the women's Tour de France. I find it's a bit of a clickbait media thing. I'm already seeing articles about eating disorders in sport again. It's a super important topic.

Björn: Right, but we should bring everyone up to speed on what this is actually about.

Niclas: Sorry, go ahead.

Björn: Pauline Ferrand-Prévot won the women's Tour de France — the first French woman to do so. And in a pretty dominant style. The first few days were all rolling, lots of chaos. Jumbo-Visma, or Visma-Lease a Bike, controlled that really well and didn't lose any significant time. And then on the last two stages, which were basically all uphill, Pauline just dismantled the entire field. The discussion that came up is that if you look at her recent years on mountain bike, she clearly lost a lot of weight for this event. You might have more specific numbers on this, but she was really, really thin. Yeah, super, super thin. If this were... And I think the big point is, if you look at men's sport, it's okay when a Vingegaard is completely depleted and stands in front of the camera like a skeleton — exaggerating, of course — after winning some brutal mountain stage because he had the best watts per kilo. When Pauline does it, she gets accused of having an eating disorder and basically gets dragged through the media — like, why did she lose so much weight? I think Demi Vollering also stoked the fire a bit.

Niclas: Demi Vollering was the first to say something. I first thought, well, that's out of context. But then she posted a proper article on Insta about it, saying she wants to keep her healthy athletic body and so on. Marlen Reusser also weighed in, saying Pauline just set a standard and who's going to follow that. I found the discussion surprising, because weight has always been a topic in cycling. Of course, through the very valid and important discussion about health, physical health in men and especially in women — the topic of hormonal disorders and so on. I mean, we talked about that with Theresia at length. It's a super important topic. Absolutely. And I found it a bit surprising that the topic comes up again. Sure, she was thin and it was foreseeable. But Pauline has always been an extreme athlete. And it's a time-limited window in which she did this. Meaning she knew: we're climbing these and these mountains. So if I'm three kilos lighter there, I'll climb better. That's just how it is. That's pro cycling. Exactly. Katrin Hammes, when she was still riding for Education before she retired... And the year she finished second at nationals in a really strong field, before the Tour de France — I think it was the first Tour — there was this discussion. And I said, honestly, you weigh 53 kilos, if we get you to 51... ...then things look a bit different. That's already a big step, losing that much more weight. And we did that and she was super strong, always in the breakaway up front, and of course you fly up the climbs when you drop from already-low weight to even lighter. But that was clearly time-limited. It's high-performance sport, and the fact that you're not doing your body a favor is pretty much a given by definition. It's not health sport.

Björn: Right, and I think that's the biggest point we need to talk about — we're talking about pro sport. We're in a time where, rightfully so, men's and women's sport should be treated equally. And the fact is — I'll just say it's standard practice — that in men's sport and in pro sport in general, you prepare maximally for your goals. And if that means you have to... ...I don't know, for roughly half a year of prep for a Tour de France, say, lose three, four, five kilos depending on where you're coming from, then you have to lose that weight if it's doable. And I think nowadays it's actually even easier and better because we know more precisely how to do it. We know more precisely how to do it, quote-unquote, safely and well. And it's a time-limited window. In pro sport, it's always been about extracting the maximum from your body and psyche to deliver the best performance on day X. That's pro sport. So... When you then accuse the woman, quote-unquote, of having an eating disorder just because she was maybe — this is a bit exaggerated — the only one willing to make that trade-off, and her team analyzed it properly and saw, okay, you'll win this Tour de France on these two days, and for that you need the best watts-per-kilo ratio. And if Pauline was the only one in the field willing to make that trade-off and then make that extreme cut, then she also rightfully wins the thing. But that's pro sport. That's what it's about. It has nothing to do with health and nothing to do with sustainability. And what maybe many normal recreational athletes should aim for has nothing to do with this. This is about being the best woman or man in the world and delivering the best possible performance.

Niclas: What you can't do — performance always has to be there. You can't fall into the trap of thinking: if I get lighter, I get better. If you don't have the engine, sure, you'll get better, but you won't reach the top tier. So the engine has to be there, and then you can shave a bit off the chassis. That endurance sport, or sport in general, always has issues with body image is not a new topic. When I was little, female gymnasts were literally children. It was really disturbing, and they were all super, super skinny. That's changed. Track and field athletes are also right at the edge. I once saw a great documentary about Swedish track athletes who basically all had eating disorders across the board.

Björn: The question is always... Do you guys watch the top marathon runners in the world?

Niclas: Of course, they're all super thin. There's that great book, Running with the Kenyans, where the author runs with these Kenyans and they just tell him, why do you eat so much? Like, three bowls of rice is plenty. No, the weight topic is always — the less something weighs, the faster it can be moved, simple as that. And if the engine is big, sure. And we know, if we build up a big engine and then reduce weight, it might get better. What's nicer, of course, is building the engine so big that weight doesn't matter much at all. See Uno-X, for example. Ingebrigtsen is also a nice counter-example. It's cool. But I'd say, the bigger you get, the harder good oxygen uptake gets.

Björn: Yeah, but — you also have to say, none of these Uno-X giants, and no Ingebrigtsen, will ever win an Alpine stage against a Pogacar or a Vingegaard, who are lighter. So it's always situation-dependent. And you saw it with a Wout van Aert — yeah, he can win a Tour stage in the mountains, but he does that for one day, because on that day he'll push so much energy through, he can't do it a second day.

Niclas: Watts per kilo is maybe simple put, but whether you're hauling a 10-ton truck up or launching a Ferrari up, that's the problem. The truck just pulls a bit more energy. Anyway, the big topic is — how is this accompanied psychologically, how psychologically stable is this person? And that's what it hinges on. When people enter the sport with psychological issues — endurance sport unfortunately is also a good escape. A good escape, yeah, clearly. There are many endurance athletes who simply have problems, to put it bluntly. There's a great book, Life Paths of Athletes, I think published late 90s, which covered stuff like that. Or Dominik Nerz's book — eating disorders aren't unknown in this world. So how is something caught psychologically? The loss of control you feel in life, you can solve it through endurance sport and controlling your weight. It's nothing other than an escape into control that you don't otherwise have over your life. I can control my weight, I can force my body, or I force sport on it. That's the problem. And when you enter a team, a WorldTour team — I mean, there are sports psychologists now, thankfully, who have to catch that. But if it's a very conscious decision — okay, I know this isn't awesome, and losing weight at the low body weight pros already have is a tough slog. I know Geraint Thomas... ...once said the training, everything, is awesome and super fun, but the worst is really losing weight. It's so brutally hard because it eats at you mentally. Bad mood — we all know it — can wonderfully be fought with knife and fork. Just have a good meal and suddenly things go... Better. Hangry isn't an unknown term. So I get the discussion, partly. I get the alarm bell. But pinning it on Pauline is wrong. Women's cycling is developing into high professionalism. They did what men's teams do, plain and simple. And it's clear this will happen. I mean, a Demi Vollering, a Lotte Kopecky, or Marlen Reusser — they're all versatile riders. Riders who can do everything. They can time trial great, win sprint stages, win everything. That there's now specificity — pure climbers emerging — is totally clear, it had to come. So I see this as a natural step in the evolution of cycling, but always with the caveat: hey, this isn't good, it can't be permanent. And I've had athletes I've coached who kept chasing this wrong image — I have to be as light as possible — but the engine just wasn't there. They only got through with a super-low lactate production rate and got dropped on every bump. So yeah. Women's cycling is changing massively. Four or five years ago the question was: what's the woman's one-minute power? That was the key, breakaway, getting away, attacking somewhere. And now it's about other performance metrics, not just high glycolytic and VLamax outputs, but watts per kilo on the climb. Should we close this topic? I think it's really bad. You know, you get so primed, and I see Vollering, Kasia Niewiadoma, Pauline all posting food the whole time. Like, I eat and I eat fries.

Björn: What I wanted to add was that I liked what Kasia did. She said in an interview or even posted about it — I'm not sure — that on those last two days she rode her best power numbers ever and she's absolutely satisfied with her placement, because she knows she did everything in preparation, she prepared as best she could, and someone just came who was even better. And that's, I think, really the message you can take away — ultimately the only thing you as an athlete can influence is your performance capacity. If you've done everything you can, everything you're willing to give, then you have to be satisfied with that. And then always saying, yeah, there could've been more. Well, if there could've been more, then either — fine, you'll do better next time. Or you say, yeah, but maybe my ego is lying to me. Maybe there wasn't more, because I've already cut family time, cut my job day off here and there. I already made sure I don't watch a series in the evening and go to bed earlier. So you have to be a bit honest with yourself. And it's about delivering your best performance. And if there's someone with better genes, they'll beat you.

Niclas: Right, exactly. How consistent are you? How well do you prepare? And I see it again and again — the athletes I work with who go 100% year after year are the ones who are successful. And it's always amazing to see. There are always, let's say, seasonal workers. They get it together for a while, then drop off for a few weeks, then do their own thing again — which is also fine, you're allowed to do that. But then there are riders who just grind year after year, and they just get better and suddenly they're five percent better than the others. Right. Which brings us to nationals — we want to talk briefly about that. Marathon nationals. Let's set aside the weight topic.

Björn: And here we come, from my perspective, to a rider — one of my athletes — who I think exactly nailed that, who has consistently pushed year after year. Felix Fritsch, for example, he finished ninth at nationals. Our goal was a bit higher. He unfortunately crashed during the race and things didn't go perfectly. But if we look at the power numbers, he had his best season this year for sure. And that's where I say, he pulls through super consistently year after year and extracts his maximum performance. And riding top 10 in marathon nationals in Germany is really an awesome thing.

Niclas: This year was a special marathon nationals, I thought. The course was — let me put it this way — Andi Seewald had the target on his back. Everyone knew he was the favorite. And I remember when you said, how many minutes will he win by? I said, no idea. In the end the thing was over after 20 minutes, or half an hour. It went up the mountain once, and some astronomically high number got pushed for those 15 minutes. Or I don't know how long the climb was. Or 10 minutes. And one guy stayed on — Jonas King. And he just about made it across, and Stibi was actually always sitting 10 meters behind, and the rest couldn't follow at all. Jonas King was just sitting in the draft and Andi rode a relaxed tempo. Everyone behind had to recover from the shock. And they all overcooked it, those behind, because the rider who finished third — what was his name, Tobias König or something? He was second. Second, right. Tobias König. He was, I think, in the third group. So they were really dropped, but with consistent pacing, low carb burn rate and so on, less oxygen debt, he rolled the thing up from behind. And Georg Egger, Simon Schneller — Simon came third — Stibi blew up massively on the last lap, Martin Frey also cracked badly.

Björn: Baum also gone.

Niclas: Right, like the guys who try to hang with Pogacar — okay, that comparison is maybe a bit extreme, but you burn your matches and you crack brutally, just like Jonas King exploded, and Andi then really... ...rode relaxed by his standards so this young rider could stay on. The goal was to drag him to the finish. It didn't work anymore. He just exploded in the draft, and Andi would've won by six minutes. Done. Just did his own thing. But it just shows again — overcook it in a race once and you explode, and you get rolled up from behind. That's just...

Björn: Yeah, especially when we're talking about a race where temperature plays a role toward the end. From the data I saw, we're talking about temperatures going toward 30 degrees. And then you won't recover. And if at the start... ...you burn matches, push through massive amounts of carbs, you'll definitely blow. And then it can also happen, if you overheat toward the end, that you can't absorb as much energy as you normally can. And then it's over anyway. A friend of mine positioned himself really well, came in around 20th or 21st, 22nd, who normally I'd say rides top 10 easily. And he just... ...really cracked, he stood still — that doesn't usually happen to him. But if you have a bad day, too much stress beforehand or something, you have to adapt your race strategy and pacing to everything.

Niclas: Right, exactly. That was nationals in a short summary. What else? Ötztaler. Oh yes, we have to talk about Ötztaler. Ötztaler will again be the great festival of suffering. Yeah. The festival of long kilometers. Who's riding this thing? What's his name? Jack Burton? No, what's his name?

Björn: Yeah, it's his main goal, right?

Niclas: I find it amazing that he rides super strong at some marathons, and then suddenly he doesn't ride as well.

Björn: I think looking at his recent results, he hasn't won a race in his direct prep?

Niclas: No, and the guy who beat him, Andrin, last time — I think it was Vorarlberg or something — I thought, okay, Andrin is good, but it's not like he's supposedly riding Alpe d'Huez and Co. ...in whatever time. That's no comparison. So where does that come from, why is he suddenly so much slower? I found that fascinating, to see this performance drop. And when Manuel Fumic — no, Manuel Pliem just won Salzkammergut, and Jack Burke was well behind him and then dropped out. And I thought, the power numbers he usually puts out — I wouldn't have thought these guys, they're good riders, I know them well, work with them — that there'd be such gaps with a rider who supposedly has WorldTour offers and the like. Yeah, I can't really place it, I don't know.

Björn: Is he still planning — is he registered for the worlds? The marathon worlds? Because that was his big stated goal at the start of the year, but every mountain bike race he did publicly wasn't like someone who said at the start of the year he wants to be world champion. Yeah.

Niclas: So, no idea. If he shows up and wins, I'll say — holy cow, what happened? That's what I've seen, also from the other riders' numbers. You'd never, ever, no matter how shitty you feel that day, ride for the win at marathon worlds. No chance. Yeah. We'll see. But Ötzi.

Björn: What would be — for everyone listening who's riding Ötzi on Sunday, what are your last tips for this week?

Niclas: Panic.

Björn: Best to ride six hours on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, right? That'd be best. Okay, when's the race?

Niclas: Sunday or Saturday? Sunday. Thursday, one more long ride. Four hours minimum, rather five. Empty out a bit. Friday off, and really twelve grams of carbs per kilo of body weight. Then the day before, ten grams, little fiber — no salad, no whole grain, whatever — twice magnesium. Toast with honey. Toast with honey, 400 milligrams magnesium in the evening, and then you're set. And pacing, pacing, pacing. Really, if you're not riding up front, take Kühtai pretty relaxed, and find a group to pull you up the Brenner. Simple. Never try to do it alone. Don't go poking around alone on the Brenner.

Björn: That was also — I had a call with an athlete before the podcast, and I said, even if you have to ride Kühtai a bit slower to find a group. Or maybe right before the Brenner, take it easy for a moment so a group catches up from behind, or take the descent more relaxed. Definitely ride with a group. And regardless of how slow the group feels, if you can roll over it relaxed, it makes so much difference for the rest of the race — the time you lose there, you'll get back later.

Niclas: Right, exactly. If you want to ride up front, top 10, top 15, top 20, it pays off to ride with a front group at Kühtai, ideally not full gas, and let yourself get pulled up. And the final boss is always Timmelsjoch — really rough. And that's where you need enough energy left in the body to climb it solidly. And eat, eat, eat. Really — eat, drink, eat, drink.

Björn: My main tip too, depending on temperature, of course — as much food and drink as possible. Naturally, the hotter it gets, the more fluid and carbs you need. So if — I think the forecast says around 18 degrees. So then you can definitely... ...not take in that much fluid, but definitely get your 80, 90, 100 grams of carbs in. Use the descents to push a gel in, your stomach can be a bit fuller then. Maybe even two gels, chased with a bottle of water. If you're descending for 20, 25 minutes, the stomach is allowed to feel a bit fuller — that's fine.

Niclas: I have issues with that, briefly. Classic — you descend for 20, 30 minutes and push two gels up top. Sometimes I have this problem where I drop into a hole, blood-sugar-wise. I'm a bit more cautious there. For a long race like that I'd even — I'm a big fan of liquid carbs, but for such a long race... But for such a long race, where power isn't always permanent, I can imagine saying, okay, maybe I'll eat a small bar so we don't have such a super spike. Or, if tolerated, something with isomaltulose, so you don't... Right, so you don't crash into a sugar hole. So eating — you can also time it a bit, you know, say I start with 90 grams and work up slowly. Some do that too. One more thing that comes to mind — if it's too cool, meaning at the start it's really fresh, and if we have 18 degrees, that's really not warm — I'd definitely take something like beetroot shots, Nitro Boost, if you've done it before. That really makes a difference, especially in the cool. It's much better when it's cold than when it's warm. There are these little bottles you can get, various brands, to widen the vessels. I think that's a cool thing to take. Or something like, I don't know, drinking beetroot juice, beetroot shots, citrulline, arginine — all the nitric oxide boosters work really well in races like this. So I'd do that if it's cool, for sure.

Björn: Right. Otherwise, eat, drink, and ride in the tempo zone. Don't overcook it.

Niclas: Always keep Timmelsjoch in mind. That's really where the thing is won or lost. And stay cool on the descents. Kühtai is really killer-fast. And then it's done. And don't freeze, right? Bring something warm to put on, gloves maybe. The first descent can be fresh. Maybe a Gabba. Cool if you have someone you can toss stuff to, like a handoff. I don't know how that's regulated. But ultimately it's a patience game, that race. Yeah. And a pacing game. Right. Patience game until Timmelsjoch, and then you unload everything you've got.

Björn: Okay, then the last two — no, we have two more events. Really? Yeah. You want to talk Vuelta first or Grand Raid first?

Niclas: Yeah, Vuelta hasn't been that much yet.

Björn: Then let's do Vuelta briefly. Hot take. Vingegaard just rides through in red.

Niclas: Nah, I think one more time — but the stage yesterday was so hard that the sprinters can't even get close anymore.

Björn: Yeah, so every rouleur, classics rider, sprinter, or whatever has definitely dropped time already.

Niclas: I could imagine they give it away again, then they wouldn't have to spend all day up front shredding. Maybe Lidl gets it, or whatever.

Björn: You have to see — up to 25th place it's only two seconds apart. Yeah.

Niclas: So I can imagine they'll say, hey, let's give it away again. I think for Vingegaard it was important, psychologically.

Björn: After the crash.

Niclas: He faceplants. Yeah. And then rides the thing like a boss from the front. That was pretty impressive. And I was amazed how big the group still was. Yeah, they hit a killer tempo up there. Whoa. Whoa, there are still 30 people in. Phew. I'm curious. Egan Bernal looked mega strong. Tom Pidcock I found disappointing.

Björn: I'd honestly love, independent of the team, just for Bernal as an athlete, if he finished the Vuelta on the podium. It'd make me so happy. Just because it'd be such an awesome comeback story. Yeah, that'd be exciting.

Niclas: I'd be really happy for him too. Pidcock I found disappointing.

Björn: I thought he'd have to outsprint everyone on that climb, no?

Niclas: I'd have thought so too, but the pace was just relentlessly high. Nothing doing. I thought, it's a climb like — where was that, Tour of Oman or something, where he once won? I don't remember which race.

Björn: Yeah, one of the southern races early in the year, right.

Niclas: And there I'd have thought he'd pull it off, but phew — what did he become, tenth? So it was...

Björn: Yeah, GC is currently on 10th place.

Niclas: Right. I'd have thought more was possible. Vuelta will definitely be a cool thing, will be exciting. Alto de l'Angliru is back in, I think. Killer mountain. And the Vuelta is a bit of an underrated race. I feel like there are sometimes killer stages. And I remember when Chris Horner — you don't remember this anymore. He won the thing at 41, still riding for Lampre or something. Yeah, it was sweet. It was 2010 or 2011 or so. No, it was 2010. In 2011 I think Wiggins or Froome won. Didn't actually win, but won in retrospect, yeah. And he climbed that mountain at basically a 60-rpm cadence. It was sweet.

Björn: But in the Vuelta there are always these stupidly steep mountains too.

Niclas: The hardest climbs you can ride. They're killers. I always find it fascinating when you drive through Spain. You don't have that in your head. Okay, you think Pyrenees, a few mountains. But driving through Spain? It's brutal how many mountains there are. Sierra Nevada, and also somewhere in between. Holy cow, it goes up and down constantly. So it's a really tough thing to race in. Yeah.

Björn: Absolutely. Let me say — of the big three, only Vingegaard is there. So he's definitely the favorite, I'd say clearly.

Niclas: Then you have UAE with Ayuso.

Björn: Right, you have Almeida and Ayuso. How do you see the podium? Who's second, who's third? Almeida is second, right?

Niclas: I actually trust Bernal a lot, especially in the last week. So I think Vingegaard, Bernal, Almeida.

Björn: Okay, okay. So you see no chance for Pidcock? No?

Niclas: Nah, there are two possibilities. Either he wrecked his high oxygen uptake, which is probably quite glycolytic, and that's why he couldn't follow. He developed massive climbing power and becomes a real mountain goat. I don't really believe that though. I think he just doesn't have the shape. Yeah, but it could be that he suddenly shreds on long climbs — he lowered his oxygen uptake but got a lower lactate production rate in exchange. That's possible.

Björn: Yeah. I'm hoping, or I'd think it's cool if some outsider — like a Pellizzari from Bora — suddenly rides top 5 or something. That'd be sweet.

Niclas: Bora's got a lot of movement right now too. Aldag gone, Remco coming. Remco's coming, and the staff is getting shuffled around. Lots of movement.

Björn: Next year we'll see a completely new team.

Niclas: Yeah, and Roglič also going — we'll see how long I'll still be riding, type of thing. I think you can read the signs pretty clearly.

Björn: Maybe Roglič moves to a, quote-unquote, second-tier WorldTour team, gets the full leader role, and just wins one more time.

Niclas: I also thought maybe Roglič moves on, because honestly — I don't get bringing him in, that's just... Especially for so much money.

Björn: Yeah, it's crazy.

Niclas: No idea. Maybe they're doing it all right. But I'd have said, focus Lipowitz, save money, bring in a sick staff, and so on. And now you're bringing in unrest again, pulling in new people.

Björn: I could also imagine — I don't know how much influence Specialized has on this — that Specialized said: yeah, Bora is now Red Bull-Bora-Specialized, whatever, the main Specialized team, and we want Remco to stay with Specialized, and because you're better on GC, he has to ride with you. Like, something's being done behind the scenes, because they maybe couldn't have kept him at a Specialized team otherwise. Maybe that's all running in the background, we don't really know. But from a German perspective, you hope Lipowitz gets to ride the Tour.

Niclas: Yeah, of course. So where would Roglič go?

Björn: Astana.

Niclas: Astana. That's the classic. Where do you go when you've done everything and want to see real cash? You go Astana. Bahrain could also be a thing. I could see Bahrain too. I mean, geographical proximity.

Björn: But does Bahrain — I think I heard Merida is definitely out, that something big is changing there, because Merida has been in the team forever.

Niclas: Yeah, yeah, sure.

Björn: Because it's the former Lampre team. Exactly. But I heard something about Merida leaving. I don't really know.

Niclas: Yeah, could be.

Björn: But Roglič, Astana, that'd somehow be fun, that'd fit, and then he wins one more Giro or something. Yeah, something like that.

Niclas: I could see that. And Derek Gee is leaving too, going to Ineos. There's been a lot of movement there with the soigneur they had who's facing doping accusations.

Björn: So has he been kicked out now?

Niclas: No idea. I haven't had anything to do with Ineos since Dan Wickham left. But at least there's been lots of movement, lots of unrest, and Derek Gee wants to leave Israel. I mean, that's the logical step — what does he want on a team that currently... They just — they don't deliver. They're always kind of close and then not. And the team doesn't feel like a team. I think Jakob Fuglsang also said something — I can't piece it together anymore — but that he's not exactly happy. Not happy, something like that. So there's a bit of dissolution. I think Derek Gee... ...was also coached for a long time by Paolo Slongo — Slongo, Saldana, whatever — who does it at Israel. I find it interesting he can leave the team. We'll see. Michael Woods retired. So the whole team is crumbling a bit right now. Interesting to see how it's dissolving. Yeah. We'll see.

Björn: Okay. Then our last topic. Grand Raid. The marathon worlds.

Niclas: I don't even want to talk about it.

Björn: Why? It'll be a good day. I don't know that.

Niclas: You don't know, my god.

Björn: You never know at a race, at a worlds. Anything can happen there.

Niclas: At a worlds, everything's always different. There were worlds where I went in thinking, wow, everyone's in top shape. And then the best was sixth. And I'm like, hmm, okay.

Björn: Well, sixth in the world isn't too shabby.

Niclas: Yeah, sure it's good, but I've had races where I thought, everyone's in top shape, you'll take one-two-three today. What?

Björn: You'll take one-two-three today.

Niclas: Yeah, that'd be sweet, right?

Björn: Who knows. I mean, silly as it sounds, you'd have the rider material to do it at the start line. So, watch — if I... Just to build zero pressure here.

Niclas: If I pull that off, I'm hanging up the whole marathon thing. I'll say I've achieved everything, done. Would you stop coaching entirely? No, not coaching, but I'd say in the marathon field I'd find something new, a new challenge. So I'd still do it, but I'd definitely take on a new challenge.

Björn: Okay, okay. Oh god, now panic. Nah, why? You can do what you want. You can become a coach in — I don't know — pro frisbee or something. Disc golf. Ultimate frisbee.

Niclas: Nah, disc golf. There's disc golf? You don't know disc golf?

Björn: Nah, I only found out yesterday from YouTube that ultimate frisbee exists. Watched a game and thought, dude, how sick — how precisely they throw a frisbee, how high they jump to catch it. It looks like a lot of fun.

Niclas: I live across from a hockey field. Okay. And it's super interesting to watch. I mean, hockey happens on the ground. They walk around like cyclists. They also get wrecked backs quickly. Right. In winter they always play ultimate frisbee, which I think is super cool because... That's super smart too. Super smart, yeah. I think it's totally cool. Would be a nice thing for cyclists too, just playing ultimate frisbee. But disc golf — I'm surprised you don't know it. Disc golf is a sick game. It's basically golf, but with a frisbee. You have these baskets hanging, they're like chains, and you throw into them. You have different frisbees. In Sweden, you find disc golf everywhere.

Björn: This is super embarrassing, but when you said disc golf, I thought — how are you going to move a frisbee with a golf club? My brain was like, wait, how's that supposed to work? But sure.

Niclas: I have a full disc golf setup, my whole family. There's a little disc golf course nearby, north of Munich. And last year when we were in Sweden — dude, it was sweet. There are disc golf courses everywhere. I was always looking on the disc golf map, the international European disc golf map. And we'd drive there and go play disc golf.

Björn: So you can throw a frisbee really well and hit a specific, targeted point?

Niclas: Correct. It's totally sick. I love it. You have different ones — for long distance, for short, similar to golf clubs. And you throw these frisbees through the forest, which sometimes of course ends in total madness when they smash into trees and fly around. But the cool thing is, it takes place in the forest. It's a bit more natural than actual golf. I mean, real golf is this flatly mown surface. With disc golf, you move through the air, which is pretty consistent compared to grass, meadow, whatever. Yeah, you toss these things, which regularly leads to massive frustration and outbursts from my kids when it's not going the way it should.

Björn: That's actually really cool, because it's a sport you can always play against your kids — it's, let's say, physically independent of age, so you can do it well.

Niclas: Sure, that works. Of course, the little ones might have some trouble with distance. But it works — by the end they got so good they made my life hard. I've lost a few times. And it leads to insanely funny situations. When you're on — I don't know — we were on a course in Sweden, near this Astrid Lindgren Land, which you absolutely have to visit if you have kids. Really, no joke, mega cool. I love it. Okay. And you can go as an adult too. Magical. And we were a bit off-season in Sweden. And we were at a campground that had a wonderful disc golf course, a very flat one. And it was super windy. And it was a ton of fun because these things flew completely insanely around. It was a blast. They flew like 150 meters through the area. And crashed somewhere. And oh god, chaos. But tons of fun. So disc golf — look it up online, find the nearest disc golf course. Get disc golf discs at Amazon, Decathlon, whatever. We're turning this podcast around.

Björn: We're no longer doing endurance sport.

Niclas: We're starting with disc golf. Yeah, or I also like — what are these rings called? You know, right? The ones you can throw super far, that fly 300 meters. No. You don't know them?

Björn: Okay, I see I've just discovered a big sports gap.

Niclas: These are rings that are like frisbees, but fly super far. They also have some world record, half a kilometer or something. They weigh nothing, they're a bit softer. We always take them when we're hiking, and when my kids get bored somewhere at a mountain hut, they toss these rings around and play Cherries Eaten. You know the game, right? Cherries Eaten. Sorry. Okay, should we pause? Let me bring you up to speed. Okay. Embarrassing that I really have no clue. I'd say, in your youth you just gamed in front of the computer, right? No, no, no.

Björn: I was in the forest too, and built a dam in a creek or something.

Niclas: So Cherries Eaten is this game, where you throw something at each other, and whoever doesn't catch it has eaten cherries, then drinks water, gets a stomach ache, goes to the hospital, and dies at the end. The idea is — you have to throw it at the person, but kind of softly, the rules are pretty loose, and they have to catch it. We always play it in a square. And you never know who throws where. And you have to catch it. And it's a really cool game. Okay. With this very light frisbee it's super cool. Or throwing it at the beach is sweet. You can throw it endlessly far.

Björn: I see. So either I have to go on vacation with the Kafka family to get introduced to disc golf and frisbee throwing. Or I have to get myself kids now, or make some. Yeah. To be able to play frisbee in a few years.

Niclas: Yeah, we once had a big drama with a frisbee. We were near Girona somewhere, totally wild, in February in this villa that was super cheap because no one wanted to vacation in February. And we had those frisbees with us. And the frisbee flew to the neighbor's. But he was never there. He only had two fighting dogs — real fighting dogs. Really mean animals. Chained up, and the frisbee was just lying there. We tried to retrieve it. And at the end of the day, they had this pool scoop — it was of course a pool with a counter-current system too, totally wild place. And I tried to retrieve the frisbees, ended with the dog shredding the scoop. And I had to confess to the landlord — sorry, the scoop somehow broke, and we didn't get the frisbee either. Luckily, a few days later we went hiking somewhere along the Costa Brava, Blanca. Brava — is it Costa Brava? It's Costa Brava, yeah. And there we found exactly that frisbee again, one of the rings, a bit weathered, beaten up by the saltwater, but decent. We still have it. And the other one ended up in the stomach of the pit bull.

Björn: Okay, so. Short excursion about frisbee, but we were actually on the topic — Björn Kafka retires from mountain bike marathon if he makes one-two-three at worlds.

Niclas: Yeah, right.

Björn: Okay. But just to bring everyone up to speed — the Grand Raid is the oldest mountain bike marathon in the world, or one of the oldest for sure. It goes 125 kilometers, 5000 meters of climbing. The most interesting thing about the race, I think, is actually the last climb. Well actually — I find the Mandelon, the climb itself isn't that special because it's lots of asphalt and gravel at the end. But up top, a really nice alpine trail where most people would say, oh, to ride this on a mountain bike isn't that fun. You really have to ride technically well. And what I... I also always find interesting about that trail — a river basically runs through it. Meaning it goes over big stones, it's basically always wet. So the trail up there isn't simple, especially if you're cooked. And you have to say — at that point you've already got 75 kilometers in the legs, roughly, I think almost 3000 meters of climbing, maybe more than 3000. You're riding above 2000 meters on this really rough, rocky, technically demanding singletrack that also always goes over big wet stones. Then a long descent that's not that exciting. And then you go from Evolène at 1,600 up to almost 2,800. And the last 300 meters, the famous Pas de Lona, is a running section where you have to jog, walk, carry, climb over stones for 300 meters. And that's what makes the race a bit famous, because from 2,500 to 2,800 the air is really thin, you've got about 4,500 meters — 4,200, 4,300, 4,500 meters in the legs, you're completely cooked, and then you have to climb those shitty 300 meters. I spoke with my athlete this morning and she said, actually went pretty well, I'd imagined it worse. And I thought, cool, can't be going better than that.

Niclas: The whole thing is wild already.

Björn: How long did she take? Saturday, Sunday. She did Saturday, Sunday, one day with an e-bike, one day with a normal bike, really just to look at it easy. Women? Seven hours? The women's record is 7:24, I checked today. I already did a nutrition plan. 7:24. I think Andi holds the record in 5:52 or 5:54. Yeah, you could say that. Just think about it. I rode the race at 78 kilos in, I think, my fastest time, 6:45. And I rode an NP of something over 300 or an average of just under 300. I don't know. So... The race is unbelievably hard, it's super long, super taxing because there's a lot of elevation toward the end. And doing that under six hours is so — when I saw that Andi was under six and I was like 6:45 and completely dead, I really thought, what's going on with this man?

Niclas: That's almost an hour faster.

Björn: Almost an hour faster. Sure, it's basically a seven-hour race. Let me say — for 95% of the field it's a seven-hour race. No, seven-plus hours.

Niclas: Seven-plus hours.

Björn: Seven is already fast. Right, so a 6:45, if you see, okay, riding 300 watts over that time, with elevation, mountain bike, trails up, trails down — that's already — I don't think my time is that bad. But compared to Andi, it's bananas. How fast he is. And he runs too. For every normal person who gets to Pas de Lona, you see a cow pasture first, then a trail, snaking up, and you just see a line of people. And up top there are really a lot of spectators cheering you on — super cool, but you see it and think, are you nuts, sending us up there? And then you trudge up, and at the end it's just steep, you push your bike, your head's basically resting on your top tube, and you push your bike up, and your calves are exploding. It's unbelievably painful, but it's also unbelievably fun because everyone's screaming at you. Every time I'm completely dead, I get a grin on my face. And then you have to do a 25-minute mountain bike descent. And you arrive at the finish thinking, oh shit.

Niclas: Quick question. First winner of the Grand Raid, men's.

Björn: I saw it earlier — Siegenthaler, here, Nino's coach.

Niclas: Right, Nino Schurter's coach.

Björn: And Urs Huber has the most wins, right?

Niclas: No idea. How many times has Andi won it? Three?

Björn: Four already.

Niclas: Four? Did he race last year?

Björn: No, last year was Swiss championships. But I think Andi raced. Yeah, but why? Yeah, Andi won in '24. In 5:57. 39 before that. The last four — he's now won it five times. But Urs won one, two, three, four, five, six times. So if Andi wins this year, fingers crossed, he'll tie Urs. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And the fastest time is Andi's. Yeah, Urs also once finished in 5:58, for the record.

Niclas: That's also always a bit different, I think, right?

Björn: Yeah, but I think since 2012 it's the same. And Urs won the thing in 5:58 at some point. Right, and Andi's record is 5:54, 5:56. Yeah. So now the question — does he ride faster this year?

Niclas: I think with worlds in the background, and if real machines are at the start, I can imagine — yeah, it'll be ridden faster, I believe so. If conditions allow, it'll be faster. So I think what I've seen so far... I mean, everyone's preparing hard for it, or at least most are.

Björn: Yeah, so who I definitely see strong — who could definitely be good — is definitely Fabian Rabensteiner. It's also a race where Fabian — he's super consistent. And Fabian, I think you have to keep him on the card. Porro. Casey South. Casey South I don't believe in. No? You don't think so? He was... nah, don't think so. Stutzmann. Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. So, that's basically from the marathon circle. I don't know, Wout Alleman... nah, I don't know.

Niclas: No idea. I think Hans-Uli Stauffer could still be surprisingly good.

Björn: Yeah, okay. Yeah, otherwise I don't know. Then it gets tight. But hey — the biggest rival, at least for now — he's never won the Grand Raid, but I don't know if he's even raced it before? What about Paez?

Niclas: I just said that, that was my second one. So, I think Paez — a lot. Sorry. Yeah, I think he's never raced it.

Björn: And then there are also people like Alexander. I think he's raced it before, right? No idea. Balmer? Ah, that one — at which race was that? Eiger Bike. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Eiger Bike, he was second behind Andi.

Niclas: Yeah, right.

Björn: Ah, and another we haven't mentioned — Pernsteiner.

Niclas: Pernsteiner, yeah, definitely. He's going all-in on riding fast. But honestly, he hasn't super convinced me yet. Even at Austrian nationals he wasn't — either he rode it very controlled, but I mean, Manuel Pliem weighs 15 kilos more than him and it was a hard one — that was Ischgl, right, where was that?

Björn: Yeah, Ischgl Ironbike. Definitely super — way steeper than Contreit.

Niclas: Yeah, yeah. And there he wasn't, actually — what did he have? Two and a half minutes, Manuel Pliem. Yeah. Sensationally finished second on a course that's not made for him.

Björn: Not at all.

Niclas: Definitely not.

Björn: Manuel is about as tall as me, a bit lighter. Yeah. Yeah, so definitely not a course for us. I remember riding Ischgl Ironbike once, and toward the top there's a section where you have to fight with a 34, 34x52 to get up. Because it's really brutally steep. So brutally steep, a bit of loose gravel. Super uncomfortable to ride.

Niclas: I remember a podcast — I think it was the year Baum and Egger won Epic, or the year after, I don't remember, at least...

Björn: No, I think it was the year they won Epic, because they rode there too.

Niclas: Right, and I say afterward, that has nothing to do with what we normally do. They were somehow 30. ...I mean they finished 30th, couldn't understand the world anymore, couldn't understand how Andi Seewald or Markus Kaufmann, who felt long written off, finished second in the hill climb. And they just said, huh, it's so steep, we can't get up, no chance. Yeah, by the way, Grunwald is racing too.

Björn: Sweet! Dude! A few weeks ago I was at Paul's, we rode a long gravel loop.

Niclas: Filing it under adventure vacation. Just ride the thing, see what happens.

Björn: And no joke, we talked exactly about — who's racing, who's our favorite. And with Baum we said, no, Baum won't race it. Because Baum, if he shows up at a race, he only lines up where he can actually win. And sorry — Baum is a world-class rider, no question. But Grand Raid isn't his terrain.

Niclas: I think it's also not good for his back. He builds up too much tension, I don't believe it.

Björn: But we both said Egger races, or we hope Egger races. And I say, naturally he's also a big, heavier rider, definitely not his terrain. But I say he'll ride better than expected. I think so too. Because if he rides it on a day with good legs, he'll just ride straight and push over 400 watts on every climb. And then at the end, because many will overcook and blow up, he'll just ride a sweet result regardless. And probably have a good day. I'd trust him with a top 20 easily.

Niclas: He's also a top runner, don't forget that. Yeah, we'll see.

Björn: Excited. Yeah, then women. So men we've basically covered.

Niclas: Women is tough. I mean, on your side you've got Anna Weinbär, a rider who's currently dominating everything uphill. Very, very curious. Me too. She just has to handle it mentally. The pressure. If she pulls off the pacing, I can imagine it'll be good. Then — who else — what's her name, the one who was at Scott, who's now riding solo? Kate? Kate.

Björn: Yeah, yeah.

Niclas: Supposedly she's racing.

Björn: Just showed at Leadville she can handle elevation and length. The thing is, Leadville is flatter, more aerodynamic. You sit quite differently. You have to see how good that is when you ride 5,500 meters of elevation in a non-aerodynamic, steep seating position.

Niclas: I'm curious, then of course — Vera Looser. Rosa van Doorn. Adelheid Morath. Adelheid, they all climb well. And descend well. So I think it's a head game.

Björn: So, looking at it, who I'd see as — the question is, is there a start list? I don't know. Haven't seen one yet. Yeah, will a Mona with the Waldner come — will Mona try to defend her title, because she's — the question is — she's riding for Mondraker now, out of Kendell, riding Mondraker, she's the reigning world champion, and the question is, will her team let her ride, because four or five days later is the women's XCO worlds.

Niclas: Yeah, it's tough.

Björn: The question is, if she sees, quote-unquote, no chance to win XCO worlds, she might say, before not getting any world title, I'll get the marathon world title.

Niclas: How's she doing currently, actually? I have no view on it.

Björn: She also rode Tour de Femmes, so here with United Healthcare, I think, in XCO. I don't have her results in mind. She was, I think, not bad. Didn't she this year — I think she also won a World Cup. Dude, I'm so out of the loop. I think so. So she'd be, I think, as defending champion — when you show up, and with as many titles as she's won, she'd be the favorite on paper. Right — Nové Město. On May 31 she won Nové Město World Cup.

Niclas: Yeah, wild.

Björn: So — and fit for sure. Right, and then she rode Tour de Femmes with Human Powered Healthcare or Health. So long and stuff she's got it in the bag. We'll see. Yeah. That's the women's field. Will definitely be exciting. I'd say, from my side, I prepared it as well as possible so far. I think Anna is definitely fit. I'm confident — if we pull off our pacing, if nutrition works, no mechanical, she'll definitely pull a good result. And that's what we focus on. Yeah.

Niclas: Right, exactly. I'll try that too. With both men and women. Let's see if I hang up my job after that.

Björn: Then you only do development at Faster U and WorldTour. Let's see, right? Or ultimate frisbee.

Niclas: Or ultimate frisbee.

Björn: Very good. Good.

Niclas: Nice. We got a pretty good episode together. I thought after 30 minutes we'd be done. No. Good thing I pulled out the frisbees.

Björn: Yeah. I guess we're both just too good at chatting. If anyone even listens this far.

Niclas: Alright, then next week we'll nail it. Next week we'll nail it. We have to come up with some topic, maybe something with sport again.

Björn: Yeah, I'll pull something out of my nose.

Niclas: Let us do — Attersee, right? We have to really break that down properly now.

Björn: For that I can say, I more or less have the go-ahead from Bike-Discount. So, material-wise, we've got it covered. We can actually — I'm at Bike-Discount tomorrow. I'll ask when I get the road bike. We can basically start with the first fittings.

Niclas: Cool, then let's do a bit more, also video-wise, so people get a sense of how this works. And we'll have fun. I think so too.

Björn: I'm really, really stoked for that, I have to say. Because when I look at how fast you can already ride on the road with a gravel bike — I've never really raced road and stuff. I think it'll be really fun when you get a road bike, aerodynamically tuned, and then blast around with a bit of performance. It'll be fun, I think.

Niclas: Oh, by the way, gravel nationals are this weekend. Right.

Björn: I have — I have to say — only one athlete at the start. From what I know, it's basically a road race on gravel. So few climbs, not much elevation — it'll be a hack-fest.

Niclas: I can say honestly. Georg Egger is at the start. Yeah, then we have to — quickly. Martin Frey.

Björn: Really, they're all racing?

Niclas: Yeah, they're all racing.

Björn: But Georg just rode Monsterrato Gravel really well. Roman Bardet won that.

Niclas: Who finished fourth? Nils Brun. And barely on 4th, he was almost 3rd. Sweet. Really sweet. I love that, because the kid has so much pressure. I wish he'd — he just has to move to a different team next year, he's way too good for this team given his performance level. And what he's shown in gravel right now — I mean, Vakoč was second, and third I don't remember, so he almost made the podium. I'd say, the kid might have a big future in gravel, because he comes from mountain biking, does that really well, also rides the road really well — was in the devo team at Tudor. So some people noticed, and some teams said hi and asked, who are you? And I think we've discovered something he's really good at. So gravel nationals — I'm curious. Flat course, hard to predict. In the women's race, Mieke is racing.

Björn: Sweet. Right. Yeah, for sure. Fingers crossed for Mieke and fingers crossed for Georg. That'd be awesome.

Niclas: Rosa Klöser — I mean, she's in the US right now. No idea. Tough, right?

Björn: I have to admit, I'm not deep enough in the gravel scene. Yeah, yeah, me neither.

Niclas: Yeah. We'll see. Alright, we're keeping fingers crossed — or the handlebar grips I've been meaning to install on my son's mountain bike for a month and that are still sitting here on the table. I'll do it before the holidays end. We'll talk next week.

Björn: Perfect, Björn. Ciao, ciao. See you soon. Ciao.