Dalla Durabilità ai Pesci d'Acqua Dolce

Björn: Hey, this is Björn. Just a quick note before we start — this episode is an AI-generated English version of our original German Afasteryou podcast. The voices you hear are cloned with AI. Enjoy the show. Welcome to the Afasteryou Podcast, where it's all about endurance sports and training. Here Sebastian Schluricke, Björn Kafka and Niclas Ranker give you valuable tips and insights to help take your performance to the next level. So, good morning to another episode of the Afasteryou Podcast. Hello Björn.

Niclas: Niclas, just as motivated as I am, right?

Björn: Yeah, I'd say we're both not in top form this morning.

Niclas: So, a few years ago, no, many years ago, back in student days, you'd pull an all-nighter, but we don't do that anymore. Now you've got other stuff, like family, training, life itself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, nice.

Björn: I have to say, we got some praise, or rather you got praise, because you nailed the time trial time almost exactly. Right. To within a few seconds. I think we'd said on the podcast it would be 23 minutes. And what did Pogi need? 23:10 minutes. I'm just good.

Niclas: That's why they throw all that money at me, so I can pull off stuff like that. I talked it over with Pogacar beforehand, with Javier, and said he's not allowed to go faster or slower.

Björn: A few people listen to this podcast who'd burn my house down otherwise.

Niclas: It's also easy to do. You mean the time trial? Yeah, I mean, it only goes uphill. At the start you've got three flat kilometers. But what's interesting is Pogacar without a time trial bike — apparently the TT bike is too heavy, let's be honest, I'd assume. And they decided to go with the lighter one. And the bike he had was really light, no bar tape, the whole thing, so most likely right at the UCI limit. And if your Colnago weighs, I don't know, 9 kilos, then you say, okay, I'd rather save those kilos, at the end of the day I'm faster. And he was. On the other hand, Vingegaard and co., I know what that bike weighs, it weighs nothing. There it was definitely the right call to go with the time trial bike. And if Pogi had a light TT bike, I assume he would've done the same. Assuming he can produce the same power on the TT bike as on the road bike.

Björn: I think that was actually his main point, because he was asked why no TT bike. And he said he can push more watts on the road bike, it's lighter, and that compensates. So they'd done the math and that's why. Yeah, exactly. And I also think the new Colnago — he rode the Colnago aero bike. That thing is just plain fast.

Niclas: You think? I'm not even sure if it's that fast.

Björn: You don't think so?

Niclas: No idea. I don't think there are any comparison tests yet. Would need to test it. Looks nice or looks interesting. Though I'm still a Colnago C40 fan. But that's 30 years ago now. With a 1-inch carbon fork and—

Björn: But now, so we're at the second rest day. Looking at the Tour so far, would you say this is how you expected it?

Niclas: The strongest rider, he's stronger than he's ever been. It's really wild. It's genuinely — the dominance is... Man, it's scary. It's really that much better. It doesn't even look hard. It really doesn't look hard. Though, going up the Hautacam, I briefly thought — no, really not. The cadence he's spinning up there at, totally smooth, everything just flows, and then you see second, third, fourth place and they're all like... You keep feeling like you're watching a different race. They're all suffering, fighting their way up, and then he rides up and you think, huh, how's he doing that? It's wild. It just looks unbelievably playful. And he's been like that the whole season. I mean, he's basically riding around with a finger in his nose. That's how it is. That's how it is. It's wild. It's really absurd. And Vingegaard is in good shape too. And they tried to break it open with a sledgehammer. They burned the whole team down. I mean, that's really wild. But there's just no give. So Pogacar can ride alone too. Doesn't matter.

Björn: Yeah, basically he just has to hang with the others, wait until the climb starts, and then he just rides off.

Niclas: Yeah, it's really wild.

Björn: But that was going to be my question — would you have thought, because at the Critérium du Dauphiné it didn't look this brutally dominant yet.

Niclas: Oh yeah, totally. The time trial was trash. Yeah, because he paced it badly. Okay. That was it. And the rest, he just cleaned up all the stages.

Björn: Yeah, obviously, he won there, but I thought, okay, maybe if Vingegaard has something up his sleeve for the Tour, it could be exciting. But the way it looks now... Yeah, and now Pogacar is apparently sick.

Niclas: Let's see. Though with guys like that it doesn't really matter. Andi Seewald can ride with his head tucked under his arm and still win. Sometimes it's like that. There are just freaks. But how awesome is Lipowitz already?

Björn: Yeah, that's brilliant. Though he's already... No, go on. He's already at 7 minutes 53 back. And I find that wild. At the second rest day, Pogi already has the gap he had last year at the end of the Tour.

Niclas: Yeah, exactly. I think Pogi was up seven minutes last year at that point on Vingegaard. And you have to consider, Vingegaard had a top preparation this year. He didn't shred his lung and break ribs or whatever. And that's really wild. But the interesting thing is, they're riding fast, but they're not riding crazy times. Up the Hautacam, Bjarne Riis still holds the record. Now we know Bjarne Riis rode with syrup in his veins, and he went up that thing in something like 34 minutes, which is unbelievable, and you think, okay, wild. But now you have to put it in context. Did Riis ride that on a steel bike? Or was it the aluminum bike already? I don't know. That was 96.

Björn: Yeah, but let's say it was an aluminum bike.

Niclas: Still, bikes now are so much faster. That was like 8-speed, 9-speed, Campy Record, flapping jersey, Conti. There weren't even Contis then. I mean, the 3000s didn't even exist. Some tubular tires. The bike weighing, I don't know, 8.5, 9 kilos. Convert that. I mean, he'd have been another minute faster, most likely. Yeah, maybe even more. Yeah, I don't even know if Hautacam back then — the stage was shortened, I'd have to check. That was the first Tour... The one before I'd watched a bit too, but it was the first Tour I really followed as a kid, well, as a teenager. And that was with Miguel Induráin trying to win the Tour again, I think he'd already won five times. And then Bjarne Riis showed up. And you know, this weight-loss phenomenon. He used to weigh a ton, 82 kilos, Nils Politt type, hammering everything on the flats. And then he got brutally skinny. Weighed, I don't know, maybe 70 kilos on 1.87 meters, maybe even under 70. And then he tore it all apart. And not with any compact gearing, but with, I don't know, 54, 42 or 39. And in the back the smallest was a 27. And then you ride a 34-minute time up there or whatever. What did he ride? At least it was absurdly fast times. And with that equipment, it's totally gaga. But what you see this year is they were tearing each other apart already on the first stages. They were all so insanely fast the whole time on every stage. So those fairy-tale climbing times — they're still super fast, but it's interesting to see that it's not all super fast anymore, because they're also just human and everyone's slowly getting cooked.

Björn: Yeah, I find you can see it — for example with Pavel Sivakov, he's a helper for Pogi, and he uploads all his power data, and you can see what they have to do on some flat stages, where he just has to sit at 450 to 460, 470 watts on the flat for ages to do some pulls or over some rollers. Where they're really just dumb-drilling it. But you can see it on the Van der Poel stage too — that was one of the fastest stages ever, where he went up the road with Rickaert. What Rickaert did all day, he just sat there all day as a two-man metronome at 400 watts. Yeah okay, what does Rickaert weigh? 80 kilos? Yeah, but that's already seriously a lot of energy. At that point in the Tour, it's wild.

Niclas: Sure, so 400 watts times 3.6. That's 1,440 kilojoules. That's about my turnover per day that I need to have for good adaptation. He rides that in an hour. And then — I don't know how many hours they were off the front.

Björn: So they started at kilometer zero, and I think they needed just under four hours for the stage. With the neutralization I think he uploaded 3 hours 58.

Niclas: And he rode 400 watts the whole time? No.

Björn: Yeah, he did. I think NP with the neutralization was something like 398 watts at the end, with the neutralization, when they were rolling.

Niclas: So let's say he burned through 5000 or 5500 kilojoules in four hours, which is absurd. He eats back 5000 calories. Especially when you're already dead. That's tough.

Björn: I also love that Abrahamsen posts almost every day what he eats. He eats 8000 calories a day.

Niclas: Yeah, the nice thing about Uno-X is it's a team that's not afraid of riders getting too fat. So, that's a good thing. And I think — low carb is coming back or came back. I mean, that ship has sailed. So I'd just say, whatever works. Yeah, I'd go with that. Sure, I get the argument of we have to watch not to eat too much, because it's a burden and blah blah blah. But metabolically we're still kind of in the dark, in terms of fiber resynthesis after certain time frames. At the end of the day, whoever eats the most performs the best.

Björn: Whoever eats the most can train the most. And if he also, let's say, gets enough sleep and recovers well, then he has the most adaptation and rides faster, and then he can eat even more and train even more.

Niclas: Do you want adaptation — good adaptation — or do you want optimal weight? That's the game you want to play. If you eat a huge amount and can train ridiculously hard, you build insane form. But if you also want to lose a few kilos on top, sometimes it pinches a bit. So I'm curious now how the women's Tour de France will play out. They've — look, Prévot, when I look at her, she's lost brutal weight. She said herself it's not a health sport we're doing. She's riding for the Tour win, right? She's going for the Tour win. She looks brutal. And then of course we have Demi Vollering, who has a score to settle with the thing. Rough the way she lost it last year. She crashes, no one waits. That basically doesn't work. With the men it does work. I mean, Pogi controlled the field yesterday. Right, or when Pogi crashed, everyone waited too, and so on. That's always been the right thing, or is the right thing to do. And with the women it just wasn't. I mean, Kasia won the thing because nobody waited for Vollering. Done, end of story. Yeah.

Björn: Yeah, it's rough, isn't it? Yeah. Um, but I think what you see at this Tour especially is that you have to be able to eat a lot, and ideally you've trained that too. And I see it with almost every athlete who takes it to heart and does it and also understands it — they just eat a lot, properly. You see it with Abrahamsen, they don't eat tons of garbage or anything. Sure, before stages they also have maple syrup, honey, whatever, short-chain carbs over their porridge and so on, to get the energy in and keep it halfway digestible. But it's mainly rice, pasta, oats, they have their vegetables, their fiber, it's all in there. But you have to eat an insane amount. And that's the game. Of course, as a hobby athlete or amateur you don't need to totally overeat. But you have to eat back at least what you burned. And most people can't even manage that.

Niclas: I'd half-sign off on that. So losing weight in sport. I was just asked about that a few days ago, and we're making a little slide about it for Instagram. It's totally simple. It's just — is it? It actually is. And that's also — let's use me as an example. Okay, I've been too heavy, and I want to lose, I don't know, 8 kilos. And it's a simple calculation. How much energy is in a kilo of fat? Something like 7,000 to 8,000 calories. That's what I have to push through. And you just need to run a deficit. And then you can think about what size deficit. 500 calories is relatively simple to get through for most people, especially heavier ones. And 1000 calories is already pretty grueling. And then there's this argument, sport vs. no sport. There's often this trend to say, no matter how much sport you do, the nutrition will take care of itself. I'd say, kind of half. I think sport lets you lose weight way more easily. Not only because of the energy deficit you can produce more easily, but simply — You're at least an hour and a half, two hours on the bike, or maybe just an hour, and then you're already an hour or two away from the fridge, which is already an argument. And you can also afford to eat a bit. And mentally it's a totally different thing, saying okay, what do I know, I'm running a 500-calorie deficit, I normally have a 2000 turnover, so I'll only eat 1500, which can be genuinely tough for some people. But what about if I push 1,000 calories through via cycling, then I can eat 2,500 and I can also sneak in a piece of chocolate, or maybe a whole bar if I want. I worked with a runner once who did exactly that. She built her deficit that way — the chocolate diet. That was epic. Björn Kafka style.

Björn: Yeah, that was—

Niclas: I love that story. I think you've told it before. And she'd still pound a Milka bar on top. And it works great. A Milka bar is, I don't know, 600 grams. What's awesome too, right now tons of these chocolate packages and all sorts of other packaging — I just had this, oats, Kölln oats I wanted to buy. And I see here, new packaging, less content. What's this now? Less content. And I look it up, I checked the old sizes. And then I realize — wait, they really just made the package smaller at the same price. And that's why it's even easier to eat less.

Björn: Milka actually got slammed for exactly that.

Niclas: Yeah, it's wild. The packaging also varies massively, I noticed. Milka Maxi comes in all kinds of sizes. Maxi isn't always just 300 grams, some are 280, 285 I think, then 300, and so on. They're all the same price, but less content sometimes. And this shrinking — a bunch of companies just got hit with cease-and-desist over it. Anyway, long story short. Losing weight isn't hard. You just have to think about how you do it. And I'm a believer in absolutely please do sport, because it's way easier to generate a calorie deficit that way than without. And please don't bash yourself with intervals, because that usually doesn't work, because first, you don't have the energy you need. And second, you get immeasurable hunger when you've been hammering intervals properly. I just did, felt like years later, 30, 30 and 40, 20 intervals again — I've been insanely hungry the whole time. So, ride base, produce an energy deficit, done. And depending on how big a deficit you run, you can make it work beautifully. And then you fill it back up with— fiber-rich, protein-rich food, and the world looks totally different again. Then you have buckwheat, lean meat or whatever, lentils, vegetables, done. And there's still a piece of chocolate or even a whole bar in there.

Björn: Yeah, fully. So it does work. But how would you say, or what's your take on it, when it comes to amateur to pro athletes building performance and losing weight?

Niclas: Because that's what everyone wants. First build performance, make the engine really big, and then start losing weight. And the performance build should also work without ending in gluttony. Just because you rode 3,500 or 4,000 kilojoules doesn't mean you get a free pass on the jumbo pizza at Callo Pizza or whatever. That's the same number of calories. And then you've got it right back in. So keep it moderate and in training just feed back what you burned. You can see that beautifully in our app or the data field. On Garmin, then you see — just eat it back. I've got an athlete right now, we do it exactly like that. He has to lose weight. I say, you eat back exactly what you lose in energy, and lo and behold, it works without problems. Intelligent weight loss while keeping performance means eating back the carb substrate use that I also produced.

Björn: Actually pretty simple.

Niclas: And don't run a big deficit. So a small deficit, 400 calories. You also have to be a bit careful with manufacturer calorie claims. I don't know, but in the US at least I think I recall they're allowed 10% variance. That hurts. Exactly. You can miscalculate a bit there too. At the end of the day it's simple. You get on the scale once a week, or every two weeks for all I care, and if the trend's pointing down, you're on the right track. And if it's not happening in the first week, don't panic. By week two you should see something. End of week two. Otherwise something went wrong. Alright. Nice. Now we've totally drifted from all the topics we had.

Björn: Because we were actually talking about the Tour. Yeah. But now we still have a week left at the Tour, and tomorrow is Mont Ventoux. After the rest day, a new record time could fall from Pogi.

Niclas: He has a score to settle there.

Björn: He holds the climb record, doesn't he?

Niclas: Has he won the stage? No. No, he hasn't. Right, so he definitely wants to win the stage. But let's see. The thing isn't done until he's in Paris. If he's really a bit banged up and sick, it could still go sideways.

Björn: Yeah, and I have to say, what I like about Visma so far is they keep trying. So they haven't given up. Vingegaard is still riding with a knife between his teeth, he'll keep trying everything, and he's currently, I think on a climb like Mont Ventoux, he can definitely hurt Pogi.

Niclas: Yeah, I think so too, you'd be inattentive. When you're riding in that total high — everyone knows it from training — when you feel indestructible and you're hammering intervals, you get sloppy, maybe you don't eat right and you neglect stuff. And if you don't have your staff around you reminding you, it can backfire. So the fact that someone gets sick, and only he gets sick, the way it looks now, at least suggests he's kind of wrecked himself.

Björn: Yeah, that's why. I could imagine Hautacam and the hill climb time trial together were already heavy. I mean, if the power numbers are right, what we saw there, with 23 minutes, I think 468 watts or something. Too much. Yeah. I think those were numbers calculated by some Norwegian. It's not what he published. He doesn't show data anyway.

Niclas: What does Pogi weigh?

Björn: I don't know. I thought 64 at the Tour.

Niclas: 7.3 watts. Yeah, that's what he can ride. Yeah.

Björn: Yeah.

Niclas: Yeah, that's... But Arnie did that for 37 minutes.

Björn: Yeah, so it's wild. I think something online said 7.2. I checked once how long I could ride 7.2. That was your Max power, right? That's my 4-minute best. Too bad. And he rides it for 23 minutes. That hurts so much. That hurts so much to see. But okay, we'll see. You think Lipowitz pulls it off?

Niclas: He rides super smart, I wanted to say that too. He rides like Emu Buchmann used to ride. He rides like Wiggins, like Miguel Induráin. He can't attack. It would be stupid if he did. He'd burn himself completely. He rides one pace. And that's how the Tour used to be won. Induráin only won the Tour that way. Five times in a row. By saying, I just plug away and take it in the time trial. Lipowitz isn't the world's greatest time trialist yet. Maybe he'll develop that way. And at least he has Dan Bigham, someone really digging into that. Yeah, I can imagine he... lands on the third step. That he holds it. Yeah. And Remco Evenepoel was off his game. Abandoned. Yeah. Definitely a big mental factor too. You could see it.

Björn: I thought it looked totally mental. Yeah, yeah. Definitely. Live on the podcast. Perfect. I'll text him quick.

Niclas: So, now. Yeah.

Björn: So I think it would be pretty cool for Lipowitz and for the team if they grab that third place.

Niclas: Basically for German cycling. Yeah, exactly. That would be epic. Especially on a team where there's been some grumbling, like how German is this team really, when they've also focused on bringing in many riders who are just good, even if they're not necessarily from Germany. So yeah, that'd be very, very epic. Yeah, exactly. But he rides clever. I think he pulls it off. Now he just has to make sure he's not caught by the Englishman — I didn't even have him on my radar, that small guy from... Didn't he ride well at the Vuelta last year? I don't quite... I mean, sure, I know him, but I didn't have him on the radar.

Björn: Yeah, especially that he's currently riding 4th. Yeah. He's also got a minute on Vauquelin. And well, he's 1:30 back on Lipowitz. So the times are, in quotes, relatively locked in, as long as no one has a huge blow-up.

Niclas: It's exciting to see a real changing of the guard happening in terms of riders. So that's... There are just a lot of new, good riders coming through. So...

Björn: Yeah, Roglič is basically the only, in quotes, old guy. Right, right. And then almost, Vingegaard is next, the so-called old one of the old guys. Okay, Carlos Rodriguez isn't the youngest anymore either, Gall neither, but those are all, I'd say, the new generation.

Niclas: Exactly, exactly. Yeah, Carlos Rodriguez, well, they've won a stage, but otherwise they're really a shadow of themselves.

Björn: Yeah, it's crazy.

Niclas: But now Dave Brailsford is back. He's taking over again?

Björn: Yeah, he's there. Okay. Let's see. Because the money should be there.

Niclas: Now with total energy. Let's see if they turn it around. Yeah, things haven't exactly moved forward much the last few years. We'll have to see how it develops.

Björn: I heard on another podcast, and apparently you can look this up, that for example Sivakov just went to altitude for the Tour, and literally just did Zone 2 every day for weeks. So downhill he just rolls, and uphill he just rides 300 watts Fatmax the whole time. Which at the end of the day is exactly what you've said before — what just works for the Tour. Altitude plus Zone 2 is super simple and actually the best way, if you have altitude available, to get fit.

Niclas: Yeah, there are other riders who basically do nothing but altitude, heat, and base. Done. And they're fit all year. They ride really, really strong. I have a rider I work with who's riding incredibly well this season and does nothing else. Tent. Sleeps in the tent all the time and does heat training, he has his stage races, rides them insanely strong, lands on the podium, and then goes back out, done. Now we let him lose a bit more weight and he'll fly even more.

Björn: Yeah, I think that's the point you have to see in training — the races they ride are raced really hard, and you get your load from that. And especially with so many race days, that's what makes it work. So for an amateur who, I don't know, only rides 10 races a year, or let's say 20, but doesn't ride big stage races and doesn't get his load that way, you'd probably need intervals here and there. But I think in the WorldTour it's the pattern emerging for most — no crazy intervals or anything. Volume gets ridden, heat gets done, altitude gets done.

Niclas: Yeah, so intervals still exist. For sure intervals get done, especially for the guys who don't have quite as many stage races. But it is emerging, that when you have a high race density, there's no other option than to ride base and go to altitude. Done. What else would you do? Yeah, it's really interesting. What I find interesting, by the way, is that this year team UAE isn't quite as dominant as the previous years. I mean, last year they set team time up the climb. But they also have fewer top leaders, in quotes. Yeah, with Yates they do have a really good one. Narváez, of course, they grabbed the absolute — that would've been my pick too — he was always super strong at Ineos. Won the Tour of Austria and so on, he was really good already. And the way he pulled that sprint up, it was like, whoa, what's going on? Reminded me of Armstrong times. That wasn't planned either, was it? That was, hey sorry, quick moment. Also that looseness, we messed around a bit and tried this and that — maybe. But those scenarios are always around. I mean, you could see Visma burned themselves up all day, and then UAE said, thanks a lot, now we'll fall up the hill real quick. And then they're on the flat and then Narváez, which is what he does, sprinted up and for Pogi it was a clear deal. And he knew how fast he wanted to climb the mountain, he just really pushed it. Vingegaard can hang briefly, then his glycolytic capacity gets seriously overcooked, then nothing works anymore and he just has to ride slower. And I'd assume that if he hadn't jumped along with them...

Björn: The time wouldn't have been this wild? Yeah, I'd assume so. Just do what Lipowitz does — sit in, ride calm.

Niclas: It's the same with everyone, it's always the same thing. Pogacar is just that good, I wouldn't do it. It's nonsense. Why? Why do you do that? Why don't you just say, okay, I lose 15 seconds here, and then I'll see if I can maybe ride back on.

Björn: We've still got 35 minutes of climbing here.

Niclas: But I mean, not my problem.

Björn: Not yet. Okay, so we keep our fingers crossed for Lipowitz to get third. And we have to keep our fingers crossed for Wissner too, because that's who I work for.

Niclas: So there you go.

Björn: We keep our fingers crossed for Wissner too, of course. But really I just want Lipowitz to bring third place home to Paris. From a German perspective.

Niclas: That'd be pretty cool. After he abandoned, he went to McDonald's with all the mechanics. Really? Yeah.

Björn: Okay, lost enough weight. I need food. Pouring in milkshakes and McFlurries and McSundae with caramel sauce. Epic. Yeah, I mean, he's invested enough the last few months. Yeah, and then you show up and everything's shit. Absolutely, absolutely fair. So, what else are we talking about? You wanted to talk about the Attersee time trial King of the Lake.

Niclas: If we've got it in the description, we're talking about King of the Lake and the Tour de France, and everyone just waited 30 minutes for us to talk about the Tour. Fuck off, we've already seen it all, nobody wants to hear that. Right, King of the Lake, time trial.

Björn: Beautiful course, 47.2 kilometers, 302 meters of elevation. Just under an hour for the top riders.

Niclas: Yeah, it depends on how much wind there is. Shall we calculate how fast Remco Evenepoel would ride this race? Shall we run that?

Björn: Go for it. So basically... there are several smaller climbs. At the start there's a short 82-meter climb at 5.2 percent. Then you've got 50 meters at 5 percent. Then smaller ramps, about 19 meters of elevation at 7.7 percent. And then at kilometer 24 there's a bigger roller, let's call it that, that has 9.3 percent at one point. But overall, more or less flat. Then coming back you've got more climbs at 8.1 percent for 30 meters and 5.5 percent for 91 meters. But it's never that much. And I'd almost say you can ride pretty much the whole thing in the aero bars, and you'll probably just push up the rollers out of the saddle here and there. Yeah. And then coming back, I think the steepest section is 12.5 percent for 37 meters. And that's it.

Niclas: Let's see. Kottl. King of the Lake. King... Look, King of the Lake, 25 km course. Several people have uploaded this.

Björn: Yeah, of course. Yeah. There'll be people who test with Afasteryou so they can ride the best possible time there.

Niclas: Let's see how fast you could ride on the 24th now. 24.7. That's — we can't look that far into the future. Let's see. Let's take a Remco Evenepoel type. How fast could he ride it? This will take a moment. In the meantime we can talk about anything else. My tip, under an hour.

Björn: Yeah well, but the top times are under an hour. 50 minutes.

Niclas: 56 km/h average. At 400 watts, a 56 km/h average.

Björn: With a 0.168 CdA. That's already very, very fast.

Niclas: And where's the record?

Björn: I can't tell you off the top of my head. Look, there are race rules... I think I saw something once. In any case, 57-minute times are the best times.

Niclas: Then you see the gap between the best time trialist in the world and... it's a hobby event. Sure, there's an odd Conti rider now and then doing it. But it's... You can also smash it in 51 minutes. 2024.

Björn: Elite results list... So the fastest woman rode the whole thing in 1:02:21 with a 45.4 km/h average. Fastest man needed 55:59 with a 50.6 km/h average. Was a Conti rider.

Niclas: Yeah.

Björn: Right.

Niclas: So, now let's do a normal aero, yeah? I mean, that's already wild. If we now...

Björn: So you're saying Remco will probably ride a 50.

Niclas: Yeah, 51, yeah, maybe 52. It always depends what the weather is. But if he, let's say, gets a 0.170 CdA, you're already riding really fast with a 0.190 CdA, which would also be really, really good. Yeah. Let's see how fast you'd ride. Yeah, you could realize a 52-minute time. But then you're also pushing almost 6 watts per kilo. Now let's take someone normal.

Björn: Yeah, especially, right? Not 6 watts per kilo climbing up a mountain, but 6 watts per kilo on the flat in aero position. 6 watts per kilo. That's really crazy too.

Niclas: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Let's check now... If we here, okay, now let's put in the rider, let's make it a heavier rider, let's say 80, with bike, say 90 kilos.

Björn: Yeah, with bike — most TT bikes already—

Niclas: So, let's say we've got a 90-kilo rider, a 0.200 CdA. Or 0.195, that's a good CdA for someone that heavy. He goes lower too. And let's say he has a threshold of 385 watts. Okay, I'd have said 350. Yeah, or let's say 350. Okay, yeah, in TT position, sure. So, carb emptying 100%, 90 grams, fits, all good. Let's see. Yeah, 55-minute time. 55:17. You don't have to be that exorbitantly good.

Björn: You just have to be aerodynamic as hell.

Niclas: You just have to be aero.

Björn: So the rider standing there, I'd argue, pushed more watts than 350.

Niclas: I'd assume. He definitely doesn't have a 0.09 — maybe no 0.09.

Björn: So it's a... I don't know, should we name the name? No idea.

Niclas: Any name works.

Björn: Last year's winner, anyone can look it up, is Julian Braun from Rembe Pro Cycling. He'll be completely optimized, full TT bike with everything. And I'd almost say he probably pushed more watts and then probably has a worse CdA.

Niclas: Yeah, most likely.

Björn: But he still won by a clear margin. 22 seconds gap is already not bad. I think the next Conti rider was 4th, 5th place, and probably you also have one. The next one I know is in 9th place. He needed 59:27 with a 47.6 km/h average. That's a hobby athlete, I rode with him once at Beastmode E-Cycling. He already sits well. But I think everything is self-optimized, maybe even with Afasteryou. I don't know. But he trains really well.

Niclas: Yeah, I'm looking right now.

Björn: So probably, if someone comes along who can push a ton of watts and also really, really sits well, they'll ride even faster there.

Niclas: Yeah, definitely. So I think a lot of people aerodynamically just aren't... really well optimized.

Björn: But it's also hard, right? As a hobby amateur or even as a Conti rider, say, he can't — he probably has his skinsuit from Rembe, he has to wear that, whether it's perfect for him or not, he has to ride that. He'll have to wear his helmet, he'll probably have to ride the equipment, so you can't — unlike WorldTour teams, you can't fully optimize everything. It's pretty hard to really do it at a very high level, or the cost goes extremely high very quickly.

Niclas: So I did it once with Rainer, when he was still at Ringhofer — Rainer Kepplinger, who's at Bad Bachgern now — we tackled this for fun and I think he came second. We went right around 57 minutes.

Björn: Okay.

Niclas: And the CdA was around 0.200. Around 0.200. It wasn't nearly fully optimized. One sec. Let me pause. I'm grabbing the doorbell quick. Sec. Right, so 57 minutes is what we rode back then. And it wasn't hardcore optimized or anything.

Björn: What would you say if you now... Oh, what does a good TT bike cost? Let's say I want to buy a TT bike at Canyon. 8,000, you'd probably have to spend.

Niclas: I'd buy some used one on Ebay. Used? Okay. Position is always the deciding factor. You just have to completely optimize. I mean, Mieke Kröger became German champion on a Plasma 3. With rim brakes. Yeah. That's the Velo. Done.

Björn: Fully optimize an old Cervélo. So you'd say, with 5,000 euros you could pull this off? I think even with 4,000. I think even with 3,000. Whoa, we'd have to find a rider who's up for it. Yeah, I'll do it.

Niclas: No problem. I'm in. I'd even say — I'll stick my neck out for 2,000 euros.

Björn: For 2,000 euros. But with, well come on, skinsuit — you still have to buy a decent skinsuit.

Niclas: Grab a Castelli Bodypaint. Then test a few helmets. Then you look, you grab an old Bell Javelin or whatever, test everything through. If you have a year and the position — I mean, at the Attersee you don't even have to ride UCI-legal. You can get a bit wilder with it.

Björn: Okay, so you'd argue — let's say, come on, we give you 3,000 euros, could you pull it off?

Niclas: Yeah. A good aero setup, I think you could. I think if I fully optimize my old field TT bike that you've got here, yeah, sure, it's doable.

Björn: Alright, anyone listening here — feel free to text Björn if you've got 3,000 euros to spare and feel like riding the thing fast.

Niclas: Just as an example, yeah. I've got a rider now, this year unfortunately not, because he got sick, but we also had the topic — riding King of the Lake. I had him in that open category. Okay. On a road bike. And I'll tell you what CdA we got there. On a road bike? On a road bike, yeah.

Björn: With aero bars, without aero bars? Without. Without? Okay. So. Aero tests. That'd be the road bike results list, right? 0.210 CdA. 0.210 CdA, what do you think? Road bike. What time would that give you?

Niclas: 0.210 CdA.

Björn: If you now roughly estimate how strong he was.

Niclas: Yeah, I can. No problem. I'll crunch it. No problem.

Björn: Because I have the men's road bike results list open. Top time is 1 hour 2:17 with a 45.5 km/h average.

Niclas: So simulation. My simulation. King of the Lake.

Björn: Whoa, that's a lot of riders.

Niclas: Wild.

Björn: Way more than at the TT.

Niclas: Yeah, sure. You don't need a TT bike. So, let's say 0.220 CdA — let's say he can also hold all that. System weight 100 kilos. And he'd now ride the thing... Whoa, 92. So. With a 0.220 CdA, let's see. One hour two.

Björn: That'd be winning time. Winning time is one hour two, 17.06. Yeah. With a 0.220 CdA on a road bike... Uh, yeah. Is it doable?

Niclas: He rides 300 watts, 3 watts per kilo. Only? The position is extreme. Okay. It's really not fun to ride anymore. It's a stem, I don't know, 20 cm stem. The bars aren't wider than a pencil. It's just...

Björn: You know that picture of Dan Bigham when he rode in that Ribble Conti team, with this really dumb narrow bar that looks like an Xbox controller, only wide? Yeah, exactly. Exactly, with one of those. Dude! It just looks uncomfortable. So when I see a bike like that, it curls me up and I just want to leave the room.

Niclas: Yeah, there's a video of him somewhere in England riding around a corner in the rain. And I see this and think, oh my god, this can only go badly. But he doesn't crash. But he's riding with this— Controller, I'll call it, around the corner and you just see, oh my god, if you twitch even once. I mean, the wider the bars, the easier the steering. You can steer very sensitively. With something small like that, a millimeter too much and you've made a huge steering input. A disaster with something like that.

Björn: Yeah, it's — sometimes they ride wider bars on the track than in the road race.

Niclas: I mean, the craziest is Teutenberg, who rides around with a basically child-sized bar. Love it or hate it. Okay. But Niclas, shall the two of us ride the open class next year? Shall we do that? Not the doped class. No.

Björn: Do you think it's — from a performance standpoint, an hour, can we pull it off? Yeah, you can pull it off. I'll do it through aerodynamics. Okay, okay. You do aero, I'll do the power next year. But road bike class or TT class? No, road bike. TT is... Road bike?

Niclas: Yeah, yeah, road bike.

Björn: Okay, yeah. Can we now... Can I get a start slot?

Niclas: Can you just buy a start slot? Is it that easy? We're making one. Let's say now we want a start slot. That's just how it is.

Björn: It's something special here, you know? Okay. So I have to get a road bike then. Ride your gravel. The gravel is currently getting hammered on the trainer doing heat training, really. Yeah, no, I should be able to manage a road bike. Would you say a totally normal road bike is enough? Or should it be aero?

Niclas: You ride whatever you want. I know which road bike I'm riding.

Björn: Okay. But you're riding a class with me?

Niclas: Yeah. Okay.

Björn: And we optimize.

Niclas: I'll take the Cervélo behind me. Okay. Then I'll have to think about how I do it.

Björn: And then we do aero fitting together. With the Afasteryou outdoors.

Niclas: Exactly.

Björn: Okay, yeah, we can do that. I'll start this year already sorting out a road bike, then next year we have a road bike, or ideally earlier, and then one-piece skinsuit. Helmet, position. Yeah.

Niclas: Okay. If we got a 0.250 CdA, that'd be pretty good, if I could pull that off. That's already really crazy. For you or for me? For me.

Björn: Okay. What do you think? Then I'd probably have to start the program again, so I can sit properly.

Niclas: Yeah, or break your collarbone ten times. No, let's not. You'll also make the podium of the German championships at an advanced age and go to Worlds.

Björn: I'll start with shoulder mobility training. Yeah. Okay. What do you just think off the cuff, if you now take, say, we start from your S5. And you have a year with me. Would you say — so we're not building, like you just said, a 0.210 CdA. We don't build anything totally crazy now. So that you'd say... Crazy it will have to be.

Niclas: Well, but I'd say, narrower bars. I think we could get you to a 0.270 CdA.

Björn: Okay. Or maybe even 0.260. Okay, let's say 0.260. What would I need to push to ride a 1:02? Now we can also check where would I be? There are people in the TT class. With 1:02, you'd even ride 13th in the TT class.

Niclas: Yeah, that'd obviously be epic. Huh? That can't be right. I made a mistake now. Sorry. Yeah, okay. I didn't even mistype. I mean, one hour—

Björn: You know the numbers.

Niclas: So let's say also human. Let's say you ride the thing at 350 watts. Then you'd ride a 1:02. With a 0.260.

Björn: CdA. Yeah, but if I ride the thing all out for an hour... Yeah okay, let's say aero position. I'd of course need a wild aero position, yeah, 380, 390 I'd definitely ride. Even with the aero position.

Niclas: Yeah, keep in mind, family planning is shut off for a couple of months then.

Björn: That's not a problem. Family planning isn't starting for a few years for sure.

Niclas: 59 minutes. Dude, would that be wild.

Björn: If we could pull off riding a 59-minute time next year on a normal road bike there, then think about it — we'd ride top ten in the TT class.

Niclas: That's a statement. Let's ride under an hour on a normal road bike.

Björn: That's the challenge. Then I have to really train a lot on the trainer in that position, and outdoors too.

Niclas: When the bike's here, you start. You start in winter. Like Primož Roglič back in the day, the Olympics.

Björn: Yeah, so we have to get the bike now, and we kind of already need the position by end of summer at the latest, so that over winter I can train in that position regularly, and do intervals on it again. Oh, that's uncomfortable.

Niclas: Yeah, then we'll go to the track in Köln a few times, test stuff. My god, why is everyone calling today? It's insane. Today is a rest day. I have to jump into three calls later. Björn, they're nervous. I'm not nervous.

Björn: But they're nervous. The athletes are nervous. Big races are coming up.

Niclas: Which ones?

Björn: Well, now for most mountain bike marathon racers, Worlds prep is starting.

Niclas: True, they're really going at it hard now. Yeah. Everyone's jogging, everyone's at altitude. Yeah. Everyone's getting lighter. Exactly. Except Andi Seewald, who rides races. He just rides races with his finger in his nose again.

Björn: Oh, I thought it was so wild again that he just rides Ultrabike, wins, then writes a report where he says, yeah okay, race pace was — it was raced very tactically and a bit dumb, he said. And then he got bored of it and just rode off.

Niclas: Right, he attacked exactly where he was supposed to attack.

Björn: Totally epic. And then he rides Transmaurienne and wins there every day too.

Niclas: But there's a video of the race where they ride up this steep ramp during Ultra-Biking. You see Seewald, behind him the e-bike. You just see, dude, how fast is that? And then the second group comes and you're like, wait, 0.5 speed, they're on normal speed. Wild how much faster he rode up. And that's where he made the difference. Yeah.

Björn: That's really brutal.

Niclas: Funny thing is, the winners had to dance on stage, right?

Björn: Yeah, the video got sent to me and people were asking if he was comfortable. I don't think so.

Niclas: Dancing champ he is not.

Björn: But dude, I have so much respect for that man. It's really wild. Yeah. Okay.

Niclas: So, right, we wrap it up. Kottl, we're going for it.

Björn: Okay. I'm at Bike Discount tomorrow. I'll talk to them. I need a road bike. It always depends — am I riding a bike that matches them and that they're happy with? Or am I riding a bike I source myself?

Niclas: Go look at what they've got. Then we borrow them all and test them all.

Björn: I can already tell you now, that probably won't work. If things go well... Yeah, I need to talk to them. If things go really well, we could have a Scott, the Scott aero bike. That'd be, I think, the fastest thing you could have. The Cube — do you have numbers on the Cube aero bike? Is that also good?

Niclas: I'd have to check.

Björn: Yeah, that could work. That's sold by Bike Discount. I only have Scott and Cube in my head because that's what I've ridden. Right, they used to sell Pond. They definitely had Santa Cruz. So they've also sold Pond. Um, so they could have Cervélo too. They have Cervélo. Then grab an S5, done. I think they don't have the S5 in stock, but you can buy it. The S5? Is it good? They have the Caledonia.

Niclas: Or they'd have an R5. I ride an S5. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I ride an S5. And in mountain bike I ride an Epic. Yeah. Since I'm basically free in my bike choice, I ride what's awesome.

Björn: Yeah, that's why I ride a Scott.

Niclas: Yeah.

Björn: But I think the Spark is — yeah, of course. It's an awesome mountain bike.

Niclas: Say what you want. Absolutely.

Björn: Okay. I'll pitch the project. See if I get support from Bike Discount for it. See if they're into it. And otherwise, Ebay classifieds, Bicycle, no idea. Somewhere I just have to get a reasonably good aerodynamic road bike. And then the two of us — Kottl. Then we see how the Tour continues. And then we see who wins King of the Lake this year. Yeah, exactly.

Niclas: I don't even know who's riding there. Have to check. Yo! Perfect. I think we're at the end. We're at the end. We really filled an hour with garbage.

Björn: Well, I didn't find it that bad. But given the circumstances, I think it's a pretty decent episode. Perfect, then till next week. Till then. Ciao, ciao.