Episode 68 — Transcript (EN)

Björn [00:00:14] So, hello. A new episode of A Faster You with Peter Schermann, yours truly, and a special guest. The reigning World Champion, the new World Champion in mountain bike marathon: Andreas Seewald. Welcome.

Andreas [00:00:29] Hey there, hello.

Peter [00:00:33] Hello, everyone.

Björn [00:00:34] This is the second take. On the first one we had some minor connection problems. So now let's give it another try. We started off by briefly introducing Andreas. And now we're going to do a bit of a tour de force. Let me fast-forward a little. I got to know Andreas at a cyclocross race that I was riding myself. He was riding in a different class. At least he was on a touring bike, with fenders and a luggage rack and so on. Jamaica colors on the sides of the bike and on his jersey too, and he was beaming all over up there at the front. And that's when I knew, okay, this guy has something. A few days later I ran into Rasti. Rasti has a bike shop in Lenggries. He used to work as a mechanic for Bike Magazin, down in the basement. And then I asked him if he knew the kid. He said, sure, that's Andi Seewald, he's really got something. And that's how it slowly came about. At some point at Eurobike, Rasti came up to me again about Andreas and said, listen, this kid is so good, do you have any idea how we could get him onto a team? And then we squeezed him into the Centurion Vaude team, so to speak, Clemens Hesse and I, because we were working there at the time as coaches and performance managers. And that's how it was. But now Andi has to tell the rest himself, because he has a completely different background. He didn't start out with mountain biking at all, but with completely different things. Andi, over to you.

Andreas [00:02:09] Yeah, I started mountain biking pretty late. I think I was 19, towards the end of my apprenticeship. I rode the Tegernsee Mountain Bike Festival. Longest course, not much competition in the U23. And I ended up winning the race. Which was super cool, of course. And after that first race I got in touch with Rasti pretty quickly, and from then on I spent pretty much every free minute hanging around down at the shop. Then I think I did another race the following year. Rasti supported me as best he could right from the start. He always bought his own bikes for me. His first 29er. was my first 29er, and so on. Exactly, and all the way up to my six-month bike trip, he lent me his touring bike and just all kinds of things. He drove to the races with me, and together with his partner Jutta he taught me the basics really well, and he also just passed on the fun of it. So right from the start it was simply cool to be out there, and that's exactly how I got into bike racing.

Peter [00:03:19] And Andi, for the listeners, before that, in your childhood and as a teenager, what sports did you do? What's the background, where does this huge engine come from?

Andreas [00:03:28] Well, I was in the ski club, alpine skiing, in the neighboring town, at Skiclub Gaißach. Yeah, we actually... I'd say it wasn't some massive, intense program. But I had a few good coaches. Circuit training all year round, then running and cycling in the summer. In winter, of course, skiing as much as possible. But it wasn't really any crazy volume or anything like that. It was really... Yeah, completely normal youth sport in a club. And then I stopped in 2015, 2016, I think. Pretty abruptly.

Peter [00:04:04] Quick question in between, sorry. Were you already especially good compared to others your age back then? Did it come easily to you? Or could people already see some talent for endurance sports?

Andreas [00:04:16] Yeah, in some ways, yes. There were, maybe once a year or so, small uphill races on the Wallberg or the Hirschbachs Sattel or the Blomberg. Those are about 20-minute uphill races. I actually took part in those too. I always did well there. Or smaller forest or mountain runs. But not to the point where anyone came up to me and asked whether I'd join a cycling club or a running club.

Peter [00:04:38] So you did that until 2015, 2016. That's where you had broken off.

Andreas [00:04:45] Exactly, then fairly, or rather quite abruptly, I stopped ski racing, because it wasn't going well. I think it was a pretty bad winter, with poor training conditions, then tough, icy race conditions, and I had few or no results. And then came my apprenticeship as an electronics technician for automation, and more and more I went in the tech-nerd direction for a few years. That's also thanks to your good internet connection. Yeah, exactly. And then only at the end of my apprenticeship... so for two, three, four years I wasn't very active in sports. And at the end of the apprenticeship came that fairly spontaneous race at the Tegernsee.

Björn [00:05:34] Now let's take a step forward. You finished your apprenticeship, then you went to Centurion Vaude. There you were, let's say, the fifth wheel for a few years. With Jochen Käß, Markus Kaufmann, Hermann Pernsteiner, Daniel Geismeier was there. And a few others, but I can't quite remember them right now. And then you went to Kreidler with Moritz Mielatz. together. That was actually a nice project. Markus Bauer. Markus Bauer, definitely. Markus Bauer, don't forget him. And then the whole thing was shut down after the Olympic Games in Rio. And then you were kind of out on the street for a while, so to speak. There was still a small team after that. A small mountain bike team that was supported by a Specialized store here in Munich. Reisentele sponsored too, and so on and so on. And that's where you really showed what you can do. I think you even finished sixth at the Worlds, not as a pro, because you were still working on the side. I don't know if you were already with the German armed forces at that time, in the sports program. That was later. Yeah, that was later. And then I remember there was a decisive meeting between me and Julian Biefang at the bakery in Unterföhring. I was sitting with Julian, and back then Julian was, I don't know exactly what he did at Canyon, I think mountain bike spec and equipment and so on.

Peter [00:07:02] Product manager, mountain bike.

Björn [00:07:05] Anyway, Julian asked me, okay, who should we take onto the team? He suggested a few people, and I said, take Andi Seewald. And he said, Andi Seewald? Ah, I don't know. I think the year before, you had won Forestier. So I said, take Andi Seewald. The guy sleeps in his Ford Galaxy and the next day he rides away from everyone else. And it wasn't exactly a bunch of slouches on the start line at Forestier. And so I said yes, and back and forth. Anyway, they then got in touch. And then you did your... And then I told him, listen, he's going to be World Champion. Julian said, yeah, tell me another one. And then he did the contract, I think for the 2021 season. From 2020 to 2021. Then you became World Champion, first European Champion and then World Champion. And that's when things really, really took off. That was basically the story: before that you were on teams, but you earned very little money, to put it plainly. I don't know what there was at Kreidler. But the teams always supported you well, but you couldn't live off it, to be honest. And with Canyon that changed dramatically. And now you are where you are. And we have two... When did we start, Andi? Was it twenty fourteen? Or twenty fifteen? Something like that?

Andreas [00:08:34] Yeah, 2015, when I joined Centurion. So we were already in touch in 2014.

Björn [00:08:41] Exactly, that's when we set it all up together with Clemens Hesse. And yes, we've been doing it ever since.

Peter [00:08:48] I remember an anecdote from back then too. I think it was the Worlds, which I also rode, in the Dolomites in Italy, where Andi finished sixth, I believe. I think Markus Bauer had just ended his career and was doing feeding, and I ran into him in the parking lot the day before, and he said to me, Andi Seewald will be World Champion one day. He's going to finish sixth even though he's still working, and if he gets the support, he'll be one of the greats in this sport. And of course I remembered that later when I talked to Julian about it, that he was coming to Canyon, which made me really happy. That was kind of the breakthrough, where you could do the sport as a full-time pro, so to speak, right?

Andreas [00:09:26] Yes, absolutely.

Peter [00:09:28] What was that like for you?

Andreas [00:09:30] Yeah, it was wild. I still remember going out to train at home, Monday morning at 8, and thinking, what are people thinking? What's he doing all day? Does he ever go to work or what? Yeah, it was a wild feeling. Really grateful, I'm still grateful, but especially back then. At the beginning it was often like, hey, now Okay, I'm going training now. This is my job. Same again tomorrow, completely normal. Then I think about whenever it fits into the season plan. Then I'll do another training camp, whenever. It was just an amazing time. In the years before, I'd almost stopped believing I'd ever become a full-time pro. but rather that it just wasn't possible somehow. Maybe that it's just not possible in mountain bike marathon racing. Yeah, a huge change in my life back then.

Peter [00:10:27] And I think that's also a point: once you've done this sport at the level Andi was already at while still working a job, you have a completely different kind of gratitude when you then get the chance to do it as a full-time pro. I see that with other riders who have never worked, in quotation marks: that gratitude, that sense of privilege, just isn't there as much as when you've already tried to juggle everything at once. I think that's just the nature of things. And I know it a bit myself, on a completely different level of course, that feeling that other people think, what does he actually do all day? Because in your circle you're a bit of an outsider at first, since everyone has a regular job and you're riding your bike into the woods at 10 on a Tuesday morning. Yeah, but cool, great story.

Björn [00:11:15] Same for me. People always wonder, what is he even doing? But I have to say something about that too. I wonder that myself. People just throw money at me. I don't understand why. Before that I'd already had real success, especially with Clemens. The hour world record, we won the Transalp several times, we'd already had a World Champion, U23 time trial, European road champion with Liane Lippert, and so on. We had some really impressive successes back then. Then I went somewhere else. And I was there, I don't even know, two, three years, I can't remember anymore. Anyway, it ran a bit in parallel, yes. I left the company I was with and said, okay, now I'll just do everything on my own. And that was the year Andi became World Champion. And that was just amazing. So for me as well, as a... coach, if someone asked me, maybe one of the most significant turning points; even everything that came after, Olympic wins and so on, wasn't as big in comparison. Look, Peter's gone. Why is Peter gone now? Then we'll just carry on by ourselves. So you can simply say that your World Championship title was definitely a big career turning point for me too. Also in terms of perception, which is really funny, because there had been real successes before, but somehow they weren't noticed as much. Maybe because of social media and so on, people didn't really pick up on it, because back then I wasn't doing anything there, and I still don't do much now. But that was the defining moment for me. But of course now the readers and listeners always want to know... readers, old journalist habit... the last five years. Then in Denmark we... we took second place, which was also a huge achievement, because the course wasn't exactly suited to riders with big climbing ability. We did a lot of aerodynamics work there, and it worked really well. And then came a few years where things just didn't quite fit. If we look back on the years that didn't go so well: in 2023 Avancini was World Champion, I coached him too. You were sick before that. You had doubts about it. What were the years after that like?

Andreas [00:13:41] 2024 was in the USA. Not Lake Placid, but the other one in the USA. I actually had a good race too. I was there in the finale. I probably rode a pretty dumb race tactically. I remember the first half of the race was all trail, then the second half all flat and gravel, and I think Viktor Koretzky was out front, and I was stressed or worried that we wouldn't catch him again, so I did quite a lot of the pulling. And then in the finale, some climb of under 200 meters of elevation or so, maybe 300. Yeah, then I had nothing left. I think I finished fourth. Andreasen was there too, I think. Or he won, I think, right? Andreasen won, exactly.

Björn [00:14:32] Yes, exactly. Then let's talk about years like that. Last year. And I remember I was sitting in the car with the live ticker on, following the results. I was on the highway, saw the results and thought, oh God, what happened there? Tim rode really well, finished sixth. I think you finished fourteenth, which is still a great result. But that year, and we've already talked about it a bit, was something I kept in mind at this year's Worlds too. Tell us a bit about it.

Andreas [00:15:03] Well, it wasn't exactly that kind of year. No, I mean, you became European Champion. European Champion, mountain bike marathon World Cup overall win. You also won the German title.

Björn [00:15:17] German Champion, yes. Why I say "that kind of year", I honestly have to slip that in quickly. Everyone said about that race: who, if not Andi Seewald, can win there? You hold the course record, you have everything, that race is tailor-made for you. The Grand Raid, yes. And everyone wondered, I mean, nobody saw anyone else winning. But sorry, go on.

Andreas [00:15:40] No, I remember the whole season had gone really well. You kept warning me along the way: better skip this race, better skip that one. And I always said, yeah, we'll just plan it as a hard session, it'll be fine. And then there was the weight management too. You warned me in advance. 5,000 meters of climbing is something else than 3,000. If we were a kilo lighter or so, that would be good. But at that point I really didn't care about it. I thought, just stay relaxed. I haven't worried about my weight for ten years. We're not going to start now. And then, the way it is, funnily enough racing tends to make me heavier, especially when you train less in between. So at the Worlds I was already a kilo or two heavier than normal, but I didn't think anything of it. Roughly how much do you weigh, Andi? Normally around 69. And then I was already at 71, 72. Which in training and in races that aren't too long is actually awesome, because you just always have power. But the Worlds simply had 5,000 meters of climbing. And I was just suffering the whole day. But it wasn't only the weight's fault, I can explain that later. At some point the form simply tipped over. It was known from other years too that peak form doesn't last from April to October. But somehow you always kept stretching it. Or I always kept stretching it. And that attitude of: nothing's going to go wrong right now. I'll always have a good day. That mindset was definitely there. And then it went wrong.

Peter [00:17:19] When did you notice it? That was my last Worlds too, an incredibly hard race. When did you notice it, right from the start, or was there a point in the race where you realized today it won't be enough to attack for the win?

Andreas [00:17:32] It was a bit of a grind right from the start. But with me that's often a good sign that it'll get better after two or three hours. But right around three hours in comes the climb, the road climb in that race.

Peter [00:17:49] Which every year for me, after five hours, not quite, but I know which climb that is, up to Mandalon, the road climb.

Andreas [00:17:57] Where every year I had taken the initiative, pushed the pace, attacked, and ended up alone or just two of us. That year I'd already been dropped twice before and came back on the descent. So it was already a grind, and on that climb an attack was out of the question, I was just happy to hang on. Got dropped again, came back again on the descent, and then got dropped again on the last long climb. Already clearly dropped before the running section. And in the running section nothing worked anymore either. It was pretty hard to accept. Yeah, exactly.

Peter [00:18:28] After that experience, what were the days afterwards like, and how did it shape your planning for the next season, also with a view to this World title? What did you change, what did you take away from the experience that things didn't go your way for once?

Andreas [00:18:41] I think it was good for me that it was clear so early in the race that it wasn't going anywhere. So I had another hour or two in the race to process the first shock. And right after the race it was clear to me. Two weeks later there was the race in Primiero, where the Worlds were held this year. I drove straight there from Switzerland, looked at the course, rode the race, and had another rather mixed day. But it was clear right away, also toward the team and toward Markus, my team boss, that... that the goal for this year would absolutely be the Worlds, and that I'd try to hold back and not ride too many other races, even though from the outside it looked like the complete opposite. The season, if you look at it from the outside, Some people told me, if you go through with that program, it won't be a successful season. But in reality the plan was there the whole time. At the Worlds is where it counts. Like I said, it was clear on the day of last year's Worlds that I would try to make up for it this year, and everything else had clearly lower priority.

Peter [00:19:50] So the course was set right then, from the Worlds in Switzerland straight to that race weekend, just one weekend later. Then you knew what was coming. Björn, did you do anything differently in the preparation or in training? We did...

Björn [00:20:07] peaked a bit later. Last year, when we became European Champion, we were already in great shape. And when you're in such awesome shape, you always want to race. I remember us sitting in front of the plan. And then: I still want to do this race, and the race he just described. And I said, ah, that's too much. Ah, easy now. And of course there's always money involved, I get that. Obviously you have to make a living too. And I do understand the intention: winning is fun, you earn money, there's prize money and so on. And I wasn't that happy. Usually I'm someone who pushes it through, but then I said, okay, all good, we'll manage. After all, that's his course when we ride the Grand Raid. And no, the shape just wasn't there anymore. That's it. And this year... we prepared the classic way, Epic and so on, but pushed everything back a bit. Of course we had other races too, did some gravel, this and that, and then we had Leadville. This time we put more focus on Leadville, went out there much earlier, and it was a bit, how should I put it, we didn't know what to expect, because first, a long time at altitude, much higher than usual. How high did you sleep? 2,800, Andi?

Andreas [00:21:31] About 2,900. Breckenridge, right in town.

Björn [00:21:36] Yeah, that's really high. And you can't really train properly there. You also can't really drive down lower to train. So you're permanently at altitude. That means we lose out in a few areas. Meaning cardiac output and power distribution in general, and so on. All of that declines. And we said, okay, we want to ride Leadville properly and see how it goes. We also got another look at the competition there. Keegan is there too, Keegan Swenson. And then we kept the training there relatively easy. Not for Andi, but we didn't do any brutal VO2max intervals or anything like that. I think the hardest thing we did was sweet spot. A bit of Fatmax, paid a lot of attention to cadence.

Peter [00:22:24] That makes sense at altitude.

Björn [00:22:26] Yes, then we rode Leadville, rode it well, didn't win, but I'd say pretty close to the front the whole time. But there too we certainly took away some learnings about what we could still improve. And I knew that when we got home, after a huge block of volume, we'd have to work on getting a bit sharper. And we put that into practice, and at the German Championships we were After I saw the numbers at the German Championships, it was clear to me: okay, this is unbelievable. And Jakob Hartmann, who's also in outstanding form, told me after the race that he can't imagine any rider who could get past Andreas Seewald at the Worlds right now. No way. It was so unbelievable how fast he rode. And then I knew, okay, if Jacki says that, there's definitely a lot to it, because he's in really damn good form himself. And then Martin Frey was at a training camp in Livigno with Jacki, and Martin said, hey, Jacki is already riding so fast, it's unbelievable, I can't even keep up. And then I knew, okay, it's always like... You have all this information, the soft information, but you knew, okay, we're heading in the right direction. And I think the numbers we rode at the Worlds were just that good. And simply saying after kilometer 40: I'm going, I'm just riding away now. And then some tried a bit to go with him. I think Wout tried a bit, Wout Alleman, but then he just couldn't anymore. And afterwards I think Andi didn't go all out from the front anymore, because we had enough of a lead, and he rode it a bit safe. But yes, the numbers were impressive. So the preparation was right, it was good, it worked.

Peter [00:24:10] Were the numbers even better at the Worlds than at the German Championships? And what do you have now? Different course, yes.

Björn [00:24:18] But I'd put it this way, in terms of climbing power and so on it was... I told Andi it was the best race he's ever ridden. And I remember last year, after the first World title, Andi asked me after the race: what can we improve? And back then we already had some ideas. And this year... Well, it was really good. Maybe not crashing. I think Andi crashed somewhere in the middle of the race. And maybe the bike he rode, the 32-inch bike: maybe ride it two months before instead of starting on it one week before.

Peter [00:24:53] Exactly, I wanted to ask Andi about that too.

Björn [00:24:56] Andi, go ahead. How was it for you?

Andreas [00:25:00] The race itself or the time before? The preparation and the race. I remember we texted back and forth quite a lot about my plan for Colorado, where I'd stay, how far in advance to go. And in the end we said, okay, I'll go to Breckenridge for this long. It's awesome riding there. And I think you wrote back: Okay, we'll make the best of it.

Björn [00:25:23] I wasn't that happy with the altitude.

Andreas [00:25:26] I'd have preferred it about 600 meters lower. So that's how it was for me. I really tried to enjoy it over there. I think I also rode considerably more hours than planned.

Peter [00:25:43] How many hours a week is that, then? 35?

Andreas [00:25:48] I think the first week we went straight to 30. And then the week before the race was only about 15. And then the race itself, another 6 hours. So I think that was a bit over 20 as well. And then I think straight away another 30 on top. At altitude.

Peter [00:26:05] That's an incredible volume at altitude.

Andreas [00:26:08] Yeah, but over there I really was... I was alone in the accommodation. didn't worry about anything else. I really said: I'm over here now, I get up, go train, eat, rest, sleep, next day again, and I'm not going to worry about anything else. And just go all in on the risk: either it turns out pretty good or pretty bad. And then I remember when I was back, Björn and I usually talk on the phone the day before the race at the latest, so before the German Championships. And he said, hey, I can't promise you how it'll go tomorrow, because what you just did, nobody I know has done before. So it's a bit like, just see how it goes. And then the German Championships went really well. Then at the German Championships they gave me the new 32-inch bike to take home. Just to try it out. Then we did a few more really tough sessions. Three or four times 15 minutes at threshold, always with one minute in between above it, so every five minutes one minute over. And I did two sets on the 29er, then switched and did two more sets on the 32er. And it actually worked pretty well right away, especially on the climbs. Then I took it to the Worlds, rode the course, and slashed a tire right away, because I really pushed it on the downhills, took some real risks. I rode first on the 29er, then on the 32er, and really checked each time what was possible. Then on the 32 I caught a sharp rock and slashed the sidewall somewhere in the woods. Fitted a 29-inch tube, which is pretty tricky, but possible. By now I have 32-inch tubes too. And then, about six days before the Worlds, I made the decision: okay, from now on I'm only riding the 32er, and if I don't develop any back problems or anything by Friday, I'll race it. And everything was spot on.

Peter [00:28:16] The position on the 32er, did you try to copy it from the one on the 29er?

Andreas [00:28:20] Yes, that was the first idea. But in general, on the 29er, especially for Leadville, I was already pretty far back. So optimized for flat courses, relatively aerodynamic. So it was clear anyway that I'd change the position for the race, further forward again. In the end, funnily enough, I just set up the 32 as close as possible to the 29. And as I kept switching back and forth, at some point I didn't like the position on the 29er on the climbs anymore. So I set the 29er back toward the 32. Or really, the way it fit on the 32. Right in the first week already. I think for the climbing race I've obviously found a good setup. For the flat races I'll probably put on a different stem, a bit longer and lower. But otherwise it fits pretty well.

Peter [00:29:13] So you're completely convinced by it. And it wasn't exactly an early switch, because there's always a certain risk in changing your equipment right before a World Championship, when you know your form is there. But your impressions in training were so good, and the components are probably fairly similar, that you said: I'm switching, because I'm faster on it. Were other riders on 32 inches as well? Or were you still one of the unicorns?

Andreas [00:29:38] I was pretty much the only one. I don't know if someone further back in the field was riding 32 inches, but I didn't see anyone. And honestly, the decision was also a bit of a gamble. Sure, the German Championships had gone well, but last year the German Championships went well too. And two weeks later, or was it three weeks later last year, came the Worlds. And the Worlds didn't go well. So I wasn't convinced yet that something was really possible at these Worlds. And that's why it was a bit of a "I'll just try it now and go all in." With Björn, the plan was actually: I'll ride along in the group and then try on the final climb to see if something is possible. But during the race I actually came up with a new plan, after the course recon as well. Simply attack on the climb, get ten, twenty seconds somehow, go into the long descent alone, and ride it at a hundred and twenty percent risk to open up a gap. From the split times it looked like it was working perfectly. In reality, after a minute on the trail, I went straight over the handlebars. There should be a video of it somewhere. Massimo, who was filming, should have it. Unfortunately it wasn't in the livestream. I really have to track it down. And then it was full-gas time trial mode for me. You could see that quite well in the livestream. A few cool scenes through the village, with lots of corners and bends. And I think I benefited there, because the groups behind just couldn't get through as quickly. And then there was the mental side. I was betting on the idea that once I was out front, I'd somehow see it through. And that's how it worked out. Yeah. Yeah.

Björn [00:31:43] Yeah, really, really good. Really good. But Andi, the season isn't over yet. What's still coming up?

Andreas [00:31:51] There are still two races left in the Lifetime Grand Prix. One is 100 kilometers of mountain biking, the other is 160 kilometers of gravel. Yeah. A few people actually advised us against doing the Lifetime Grand Prix. Well, It was a difficult start to the season. Unbound Gravel knocked a pretty big hole in my shape, my schedule, everything. Sea Otter was actually too soon after the Epic for me as well, and I'd spent far too little time on the gravel bike beforehand. Not much went right there either. But in the end, the trip to Colorado, which was for Leadville in the Lifetime Grand Prix, Seems to have made the difference now. So I'm glad I took the risk, and I'm looking forward to the last two races all the more. Exactly, and once that's done, I'll stop at home for one night and then head on to South Africa for the Gravel Burn. A seven-day stage race, and Björn, I hope we can somehow bring out that shape one more time for that race.

Peter [00:32:52] Somehow preserve it now, yeah, exactly. So what do you generally prefer? Mountain bike or gravel, Andi? Gravel, Björn?

Andreas [00:33:03] Mountain biking, definitely, especially the beautiful races, like last weekend at Latramon, with about eighty percent trails. That's just great. You look forward to every descent, you almost look forward to the climbs, because they're technically cool too.

Peter [00:33:20] As long as it's dry.

Andreas [00:33:21] Yeah, exactly. I prefer dry conditions as well. I rode it once when it was wet.

Peter [00:33:27] A disaster. That's one of the more technical marathon races out there.

Andreas [00:33:32] I enjoy riding both, but a mountain bike marathon is just... So much more varied and so much more exciting somehow, or simply... How do you describe it? How do you describe a mountain bike marathon?

Björn [00:33:47] You just have to be able to do everything.

Andreas [00:33:50] Climbing, descending, and you also have to be able to ride on the flat. And you have to read the group a bit differently in every race.

Björn [00:33:58] When I was at the training camp in the Sierra Nevada, Unbound was on live TV, just like the Tour de France. And I have to say, it's just such a damn boring race to watch. I mean, it's like... Who comes up with something like that? Yeah. So I do understand it. Of course it's exciting over that distance and so on, but it wasn't particularly exciting to watch.

Andreas [00:34:22] Exactly. But a few times a year it's actually pretty cool too. It's just... This year was different again, but normally it's just ultra hard. An ultra-hard race of elimination. You have to make the right group, of course. But again, it's special in its own way. I think it's a cool change, definitely. I'd like to do a few of the big gravel races again next year too. But the real fun definitely comes from the mountain bike.

Peter [00:34:53] I think so too, because there you have the chance to get into a certain flow when you're riding downhill. Yeah, and what I found cool about gravel, I mean, it was something new, but especially in training, where I live, for example, you've got rather easy trails. And with the gravel bike, if you've been used to flying through there on a mountain bike for years, or on a modern full-suspension bike, the bike takes a lot of the work off you, whereas on the gravel bike you had to think a bit more about your line, so it was technically a bit more demanding, and that made it fun. And gravel races really do differ a lot in what they demand physiologically. If you look at something like The Traka, which you've ridden too, Andi, or a race in the Gravel World Series, which are more like road races, it's very varied. But I think if you're a mountain biker, you happily take that along, but the true love stays with mountain biking. Even if the industry sees it a bit the other way round at the moment.

Andreas [00:35:47] Yeah, that's exactly how I see it too. And it's actually sometimes good training for tactics and strategy, or how do you put it? Riding in a group, learning a bit, getting a feel for when to go with a move and when maybe not. Developing an eye for when to move up to the front. So I think I've definitely benefited from racing gravel as well.

Peter [00:36:12] I have one more question before we probably start wrapping up. And that's about how your collaboration has developed. You've been working together for a very long time now, so how has it all evolved? What was it like in the early days? After such a long time you've probably built up a lot of trust, and you've had a lot of success together. And maybe from your perspective, through your lens, Björn, what makes Andi so special as an athlete?

Björn [00:36:37] Well, that's a good question, Peter. I'm not prepared for that at all. First, I didn't expect the question, and second, I didn't expect such a good one from you.

Peter [00:36:50] I always say, I'm smarter than I look. Well...

Björn [00:36:54] Actually, nothing has really changed. The only change is that we know each other better, but the basic traits of our characters are the same. That means if Andi is feeling good in training and so on, he'll sometimes do a bit more. He definitely has a mind of his own. Then, what Andi does differently from others, or no, what Andi does the way the really good athletes do it. Maybe that's the right way to put it. Is the ability to say: okay, that didn't go so well, I need to change something. And to actually accept that. Definitely that. That's already... And that's also something we've gotten better and better at over time. Earlier, when we were talking about the World Championships, I thought back to the very first World Championships I did with Andi. That was still with Centurion Vaude. That was the year Alban won, Kaufmann was sixth, I think, on the Sella Ronda loop. And everyone had their own nutrition stuff. But Andi had brought his own nutrition, namely... Mashed-up dates, made into a paste. Store-bought. It didn't work. It wasn't that bad either. I think I finished fifteenth. You really did that well? Yeah, okay. But otherwise you'd have finished eighth. Or maybe even fifth. At least... We've learned to discuss things with each other. When you describe athletic success, it's never just the athlete and never just the coach, it's always this structure made up of athlete and coach. That's the bubble, and around it you have the other things too: managers, equipment, physios and so on. But that's the core, because those two spend the most time together. And there we've found a pretty good, a really good mix, otherwise we wouldn't be getting these results, in how we communicate with each other. We don't actually communicate all that much. But we communicate very precisely. That's something we've learned over the years. So if I don't like something, or if I say I want this session done, or if I notice something isn't going well right now, we can address it quite well. Or if I can't reach Andi, which is normal too, I'm a bit more relaxed about it than I used to be. I know just before the Worlds you had sort of disappeared, but you were still dealing with the USA, travel stress and so on, and, yeah, that's how it is. And I also communicate, I wouldn't say a lot, but still regularly, with Thorsten Walter, the physio, who also knows Andi really well, because Thorsten has spent a lot more, not this year, but a lot more time with Andi. As a physio you're right there, you massage the legs, you hand up the bottles and so on. And Andi has a good relationship with Thorsten. So we have a good setup where you can also pick up on the vibes a bit. And Thorsten and I always bounce it back and forth: what's my feeling, what's his feeling. And then we can judge things pretty well. So it has become... Yeah, we've developed a feel for each other, that's what it is. But now Andi can tell us something about me. That's exciting for me.

Andreas [00:40:10] Let me have a go.

Björn [00:40:11] Always good.

Andreas [00:40:13] Then I'll pick it up from there. Like you said, we actually don't have that much contact. My feeling is also: first just follow the plan and don't ask too many questions. That actually always works pretty well. And we always reach good, how do you say it, good compromises when I'm not happy with something or you're not happy with something. It's always pretty easy for us to agree on things. I simply have one hundred percent trust, And that's why, as I said, we don't communicate that much, because I just follow the plan about ninety-five percent of the time. Over the years that need has become less and less. And then only in certain phases, but then the contact is all the more detailed. Because there are many things you always do the same way anyway. Yeah. But when there's something new and you say, okay, let's try this now, then I just do it. And that's been working for over ten years now. I don't think there's much more to explain. It's pretty self-explanatory. I'm very grateful for it.

Björn [00:41:18] Andi comes by three or four times a year. Then we have a coffee. And we're always amazed, and we say: we did it again, no idea how.

Andreas [00:41:28] Yeah, exactly, these days that's actually most of the questions. How did we pull that off?

Björn [00:41:37] And then I usually say: you're just really good. And then I say: and I'm really good too. And that's why it works. No, we have a little ritual. Whenever Andi goes to the airport, well, not always, but when he drives to the airport and I happen to be around, he leaves his car at my place and I always drive him there. And then we have our half hour, forty-five minutes, where we talk about everything under the sun. Whatever has been going on. Yeah, that's become quite a nice habit. Next time I'll even pick up some cake.

Andreas [00:42:12] But... yeah, now it's bulking phase again until the Epic.

Björn [00:42:16] Yeah, exactly. Now it's bulking phase again anyway, so we'll have to add another forty-five minutes. I'm in that phase all year round.

Peter [00:42:25] Always have been. Thanks.

Björn [00:42:29] Thanks, Bernd. No, but it's really settled into a good routine. And I think something else just came to mind. I remember when you won your... Which title was it? I think it was a German Championships title. Was it the first German title? I don't know. I think it was the first German title.

Andreas [00:42:50] The first German title, I think so.

Björn [00:42:54] Yeah, no, then it wasn't... Exactly, was it that one, or was it, I think it was afterwards, I think it was after the glandular fever.

Andreas [00:43:04] Yeah, that was the one.

Björn [00:43:05] Yeah, and that was a bit of a turning point for you. It was the first time, well, that's not quite the right way to put it, but you felt a bit surprised by yourself, and there was this really deep gratitude, and That really touched me as a coach too. We're not big on emotions, the two of us, when we talk to each other. But you could tell, okay, this goes beyond just 'hey, good job' and a pat on the back and so on. It was really like: okay, there's a connection here that has been growing for years. And this title, after that rough start, after that illness, gave a real mental boost once again, and it really did something for the relationship between coach and athlete too. And I notice it now with every title we win, that it's much more than just here's the coach and there's the athlete, it's really... Yeah, it's friendship, definitely, absolutely. Yeah, Andi has been part of the family for a long time. Andi came to a training camp with me and my family. I even left at one point, and he stayed on with just my wife and kids and cooked for them. No, he's the quiet family member who drops by every now and then. Where I even have to call down to my wife: hey, Andi's here. Oh, hi Andi, congrats on the world title and all that. It's all become a bit of a normal thing, yeah.

Peter [00:44:26] No. Well, speaking from the outside for a moment, mountain bike marathon is also a bit of a bubble you move in. What struck me, or what I thought, watching over the years and then being closer to it, is that another piece of the perfect marathon rider kept getting added. I remember, for example, the question of how Andi rides downhill. That was a focus at some point, or at least something where you'd say there's still a screw you can tighten. And that what came out of it now is a complete package: a rider who was already perceived as very, very strong on the climbs and in alpine races, but who could then also, at the Worlds in Denmark for example, or a race in Singen with a completely different profile, that you managed to make him ride at the front at the very highest level there too. I think of Sam Gaze back then, that second place, I was in Denmark as well, and I really thought: this is something not many coach-rider pairings manage, first of all to keep reaching new stages of evolution toward that ideal of how it should look, and to pull it off physiologically, to rebuild the rider, so to speak, so he's competitive there too, without losing what set him apart in the first place. Do you know what I mean, Björn?

Björn [00:45:41] Well, first of all, Andi adapts really well. But part of adaptation is, and Andi already said this earlier, trust. Of course I also do things that might seem a bit silly, or rather unusual. Andi does them anyway. Then I say, okay, we're riding 20 minutes in this aero position now. Because that could end up being decisive in the race. So we just train it. Things like that, yeah. And Andi goes along with it. Or rather, a lot of athletes go along with it. At least the ones I'm coaching now. And trust, too. I think if you want to adapt to something, it's like learning at school. If you say, okay, I believe in it, and even if it's annoying right now, I see a process, and that process has proven itself over years, then your body will keep adapting better and better. Even though I'm a fan of big numbers and do lots of simulations and everything, as most people know, the psychology of adaptation is just incredibly important. And if you can't be bothered to do it, or you think, I don't like these intervals, what's the point anyway, then you can forget it. Then even the stimulus that might be measurable, according to studies, and you always have to be careful there, because sports studies have huge problems with reproducibility. Still, if you as an athlete believe it works, and your coach isn't writing you total nonsense, then you'll definitely come out of it positively. Definitely. And it's an extremely big factor that you shouldn't underestimate. I work with coaches, and I've seen things from coaches where I'd wonder whether that really works, but he's just so good when it comes to the mental, psychological side, the way this coach I'm thinking of right now deals with his athletes, they simply get good. He just really listens. Maybe you could say, a nuance here and another one there would bring even more. But there are also coaches who only prescribe by RPE. Really just: how did you feel, or this is how you should feel in training. And that works. It definitely works. That's let's say not my world, or let's say half of my world. Of course I always want feedback, and of course, this should feel like this or that. I still look at the numbers. But like I said, the willingness to take the steps I've worked out as a coach makes an enormous difference. Maybe that's it, yeah.

Peter [00:48:14] I have one last question to finish. Andi, it really is the last one. Then we'll let you go. Thanks a lot for your time already. But before I ask it, briefly back to what Björn said. The way I take it from this conversation and from the last few years, the key is to take an athlete's strengths or quirks, like Andi's in this case, and as a coach not try to force the corset you have in your own head onto that athlete, but rather use the athlete's quirks and character traits to build what fits him. So, just as an example, say I have an athlete who always rides endurance at 300 watts, even though his endurance zone is 240 watts. So always too high. But that also tells me something about the athlete, and what you can then write, once you know it, you can steer it to some extent and even see it as an advantage, that he's extremely motivated and really keen to do it, and use that a bit, without being so rigid as a coach that, because I did it that way with athlete X, I squeeze athlete Y into the same corset. Do you know what I mean, Björn?

Björn [00:49:22] Yes, absolutely. That's exactly what... There's a British, I think it was a British psychologist, or maybe I'm completely wrong and it was a mathematician, I don't remember anymore. His name is Wazen, I think. Or Watson, Wazen, I don't remember. Anyway, back in the sixties he described something. Namely: find a sequence, or what describes 2, 4, 6? What basic construct lies behind it? And you can say, okay, of course, 2 plus 2 is 4, plus 2 is 6. Okay, fine. But you can also say 2 times 1.5 and 4 times 1.5. Then again, 2 times 1.5 is... and 4 times 1.5 is 6. Or we can say: 4 is the middle, the average of which numbers? Leads to the same result. So I'm describing. But I can also say it's only about seeing something ascending. Although that doesn't quite fit. But all I've done is describe this sequence of numbers. I had three options, or I could say minus, six minus, and so on, and I'd also have described this sequence. And the basic idea behind it is: we all have some model in our heads that describes something. Take a physiological one, or a psychological model for that matter. This is how he ticks, it has to fit into this box, and so on. And you have to let go of that. As hard as that sometimes is, to say: okay, I can describe a problem, and that's what's so great about mathematics, in many, many different ways. Or describe a solution. And once you've made that mental step and stop saying, I'm trying to squeeze myself, or the person, into this corset, then everything becomes much, much easier. There are always lots of different ways to explore the options. If you have someone who generally rides too fast, you say, okay, that's energy turnover, so he has to cut back in training. And what happens then? Maybe I need to... I find the corset, or of course you also have to explain it to your athlete somehow. But when I look at the training I do with my athletes, sure, sometimes there are similar ideas or similar plans. But fundamentally, the plans are quite different. You won't find a library with me either that I rebuild and then always drag in, because that makes no sense at all to me. Or saying I'll build a training plan four weeks ahead. That's just how I am. Just two days ago I had a conversation with Raoul Feldran von Bora, a good friend of mine I worked with for a long time in mountain biking at Klimatisa. And we both talked about training planning, how far ahead and so on. And he says, yeah, one week. And everything beyond that gets blurry. It's like complicated versus complex things. Complicated things you can take apart and put back together, but complex things get really difficult. It's like weather forecasting. I mean, three days before, or three days ahead, we can predict reasonably well. Maybe even five days. But everything after that gets really, really difficult. That's why I say, okay, we need one week of training, then see where we are. How does the athlete feel? That's also why you build in regular tests, or at least have physiological markers where I can say, okay, we're moving in the right direction. And so incredibly much happens in four weeks that you theoretically have to keep adjusting as a coach. Of course I always have an idea of how things should progress over the next four weeks, what should happen. But before I write that down, because that's where the lazy Björn Kafka comes in: if I write something down and it stays there, I don't feel like adjusting it anymore. I'm just like that: it's in there, it's nicely built, why should I change anything? But it goes against my grain. Sure, a self-reliant athlete will then start doing something himself, but at the end of the day it's always a bit washed out. I think there are few athletes who follow a training plan from A to Z for four weeks. And I also think it doesn't make sense to do that, because within those four weeks some component will change that makes the plan, the way it's designed, impossible to carry out as you'd actually want or wanted. That's why I always plan one week at a time. Anything else, even if it's sometimes annoying for people, anything else just makes no sense to me.

Peter [00:54:07] I do it exactly the same way, partly because I often noticed that I learned it from you. At the beginning I usually planned two weeks, but then I noticed how much of that second week was already obsolete once you'd looked back at the week of training, so it really makes little sense.

Björn [00:54:27] It doesn't have to be a life motto. I mean, you should still be able to plan for retirement, pensions and so on.

Peter [00:54:35] Back to Andi. Sorry, you haven't said anything for a long time now. One more thing to wrap up. You're now a two-time World Champion. You're a serial German Champion. I think four years in a row now. Multiple-time European Champion. What else are you planning? What else do you want to achieve? What do you still dream of?

Andreas [00:54:56] Well, basically it's the Cape Epic. That's still the big goal in mountain biking. I haven't set myself any other big goals at the moment. Yeah, the Epic is still missing. And beyond that, I'd still like to ride some new races too. But concretely: winning the Cape Epic. So let's finally get that done. Hopefully become World Champion again in five years. Then I'll be pretty content.

Björn [00:55:30] Yeah, we'll do that one before then. Very good. Thank you very much. Oh, and you've also been to Leadville. Yeah, Leadville.

Andreas [00:55:40] Leadville is definitely still a goal too.

Peter [00:55:42] I'm a big fan of that race too, ever since I followed it as a teenager. Like Lance during his comeback there.

Björn [00:55:50] Thank you both for your time. I learned something again.

Peter [00:55:54] Thanks a lot, Andi. Thanks a lot, Björn. Yeah, my pleasure. Talk to you soon, bye. See you soon, then. Bye then, ciao.

Björn [00:56:05] We'll see each other at the next title at the latest, Björn.

Peter [00:56:09] Yeah, let's do that. Good.